Anti trans for asking not to conflate sex with gender?

[OatALot]

On a menopause event at work and in the comments section they are being asked to use inclusive language such as 'people who menstrate'. These are being challenged and those who challenged are being called terf and accusssd of making others feel unsafe.

The people doing the presentation therefore have taken the stance anyone can go through the menopause.

I'd love to feedback that they should not conflate sex and gender. Surely if we just talk in term of sex and a biological function it can't be challenged? It takes the discussion away from a condition impacting females.

@DadJoke

I had no idea that meltdown was ableist language and I apologise for the offence I caused. I won’t use it again.

I am not disagreeing with women as a whole, but with the opinions on inclusivity of a very specific group of gender critical people.

It’s because I think menopause it such an important issue that it should be discussed inclusively, not because I don’t.

I used the words brain fog in response to a poster who used brain fog.

I posted here because in the main it’s a gender critical echo chamber and there a few alternative views.

Your arrogance is unbelievable. You cannot even apologise without delivering snideness and shame.

The gaslighting that continues in calling MN FWR an echo chamber seems to actually be so ingrained now. You, having your behaviour called out in attempting to censor and censure women discussing how they want to be referred to, does not make this an echo chamber. It means you have again crossed the line into misogynistic behaviour. The fact you have left unanswered many questions and comments and focused on only ever your own agenda is clear.

Did it ever occur to you that there actually is always a 90%+ result in MN polls that no female likes the dehumanising language being pushed? Have you looked at the tweets that Purgatory has posted that show you that even trans people disagree with the language? I can easily find more. Transitioned males particularly hate being referred to as people with penises oddly enough. They tweet about it all the time.

And finally, I have asked you twice already if you knew that Stonewall have now changed their direction on this. They are seeking additive language. I have even offered to get you the quote. The push back on their erasing ‘mother’, such as on this thread about detaching ‘woman’ from menopause, was so strong that they backed down. And have stated their policy is now for suggestions ONLY and usually those suggestions will be additive in nature.

So, rather than this being an ‘echo chamber’, it is actually a thread that is reflective of the opinion of huge majority of the people it refers to. Your refusal to accept our rejection of using ‘people with’ is also signaling that you are now genuinely out of date. YOU. You even stated here that YOU found it easier to use the language you seem to be unable to move from.

And you say it is us that is in an echo chamber. I think if more likely DadJoke that you use that term erroneously, as you have before, for your own agenda. You seem to rarely have any positive contribution to make for trans people in these threads. I question your motivation for posting.

You are, of course, welcome to post. But you are also likely to experience negative reactions to your posts because they constantly seek to shame women who are discussing the boundaries of their rights where they conflict with another group. Evoking that negative response seems to be your aim.

On this thread it was very apparent. And never once did you display one iota of knowledge about the past silencing discrimination that women who are now experiencing menopause. That you are being told the language choices YOU are insisting on perpetuates.

And you continue your shaming by telling us we are in an echo chamber.

Well, that sounds like projection to me.

for Purgatory.

And thank you for your excellent posts.

Interesting to note that " women and transmem" is not considered inclusive enough. Perhaps this desperate need to erase a word used by the human female sex to define themselves and their bodies has more to do with the need of males who identify as women, not to be confronted by the fact that they cannot share this part of " womanhood"

@Petrarkanian

People who experience menopause is exclusionary for my daughter with learning difficulties. She would understand that menopause is something she will experience if it's described as something women do, as she knows she is a woman. She wouldn't understand it includes her if you said people. It would confuse her and she doesn't have the language skills to question it.

Yet again, for what seems like the millionth time, why is it ok to exclude her?

for you and your daughter.

This is always a great reminder that there is a reason for using language that is clear and understandable to the majority. As a marketing person, I have been taught that any communications of this importance needs to be simplified.

There are always some people in a team who will some barrier to understanding the use of ‘people with x body part’ and ‘people who x body function’. Learning differences due to ability for that particular area of language, cultural, and English as a second language.

Even mental and physical health at the time can mean someone skimming over a wall of text and not processing it to be important to them.

I keep coming back to the survey that found 48% of women surveyed did not know they had a cervix!!!

There are so many reasons why language is processed differently. That is why using the detached language of. ‘people who/with’ is not inclusive for the majority. Although, activists insist that it is because it suits their agenda which is not purely to progress trans people’s rights.

And let’s not forget, many trans people don’t want this language either. It seems those with alternative agendas behind making life better for trans people tend to be the ones pushing the hardest on this. And I include some, a very small number of trans people here who seem to not even be listening to other trans people for reasons of their own.

@OatALot

It was inclusive, it noted transpeople, and also the impact on those not going through it, however, someone wasn't happy with the terms used and wanted an umbrella term to be used e.g. People who menstrate.

Did you end up giving feedback OP? I can understand any reluctance to do so. Particularly since such hostile language was used by colleagues.

Excellent post Hellebore and yes of course you're right Shedbuilder my post has now been deleted as I mentioned the other group of men we're not allowed to discuss when talking about issues that effect women. So there we go. Think I'll bow out of this thread now.

weedonkey

I am utterly surprised by your deletion. I thought it was spot on. Like many others, I would not comment on BMN. I occasionally go and read to understand another perspective but my comments would not add much to the conversation.

I do hope that you don’t leave this thread though. As always, I enjoy reading your posts.

Have you recently had information regarding International Men’s Day sent to you from your organisation? (Public sector worker here) I noted that it talked about MEN and prostate and testicular cancer, male suicide etc there was no talk of people with testicles, women with a prostate. It was trans exclusionary. No attempt whatsoever to be inclusive at all.

past silencing discrimination that women who are now experiencing menopause.

Should be

‘past silencing discrimination that women who are now experiencing menopause have dealt with. ‘

Right, so use of the word 'woman' make people unsafe but name called people an insult like 'terf' is ok?

Trans women want to treated as they go through the menopause? They want to go through the menopause?

I think there may be a confusion from transwomen’s side if they claim that they want to go through the menopause.

Menopause has

a) physical impacts such as flooding, hot flushes, breast tenderness, vaginal dryness and urine leakage

b) mental health symptoms such as anxiety, difficulty sleeping, depression and brain fog

c) reactions from the environment in that older women are treated as worth less, discriminated against and the menopause is actually treated as a joke by some misogynistic men.

This can actually be quite a traumatic time in a woman’s life. A friend of mine felt suicidal until she got HRT. Women also find this hard to discuss and some find it shameful. I know I did.

I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to go through that. If a specific transman wants to use specific terms to discuss their experience, that is obviously always ok.

But if I understand this correctly, DadJoke is biologically male. I normally find it offensive that women are lectured about their language for talking about themselves and in this context it is appalling. To top that up with ableist languages is …. I lack words. I am happy that DadJoke has taken responsibility for this and is trying to do better.

I think the equivalent would be me popping into a men’s forum, burst into a discussion about erectile disfunction and lecture them about their language. More specifically telling them that they needed to include transwomen in this discussion and argue with them about the terms they should use. And keep going as the transwomen said that they didn’t want to be called penis people with erectile dysfunction. @DadJoke do you recommend that I do that? It is exactly the same thing.

I'm peri menopausal. I do not want to be referred to as a person who is going through the menopause. I am a woman. Only females can go through the menopause. The language does not need to be more "inclusive".

The length of menopause for me is an issue. I was told by a doctor (a female doctor who told it like it was) that I was in perimenopause nearly 8 years ago. From listening to other people’s accounts, I am not even near entering menopause so I expect it be a decade or more long. And experiencing all your list of symptoms doubletoil.

Having any male lecture me that I should accept being called ‘a person who’ rather than using the words ‘women and..’ is incredibly offensive. Particularly with the direct experience of male doctors not providing care for menstrual issues that now seems I have live with endometriosis for decades because of their attitude. Oh, and having another male doctor tell me that my morning sickness was just like everyone else’s and to get over it, to discover other women got time off work with symptoms like mine. So after being treated as ‘less than’ by medical staff for decades … having a male tell me to use dehumanising language is very offensive. Whatever the reason.

And I doubt that my experience is unusual in anyway.

Echo chamber

I am so bored with this ridiculous, mindless tag, that just simply now means 'has turned up here pre programmed with brain not engaged'.

Obviously it isn't, or you wouldn't be here as a penis person introducing all sorts of misogyny and interesting ableism and inability to cope with intersectionality and lived experience in actual terms as opposed to your pre programming.

There really is no point turning up here, dumping a lot of pre programming and leaving again. You're changing no one's mind and it just makes you look unable to engage or debate.

And for the record, no. I will not be using unsexed language for an absolutely fundamental sex based need for women, because some male people find my biological reality distressing. I find menopause bloody distressing. I find male people demanding I frame my life, thoughts and self around their needs outrageous in its entitlement. #notyourmum They need to build their ability to tolerate other people having needs, wishes, feelings and choice of language too, as well as require it of others.

Women and... (whatever labels TM and NB people would prefer)

“Some women and trans men” is perfectly reasonable as I said earlier, and if it assuages gender critical peoples’ irritation too, that’s great.

Artichokeleaves, I think the phrase you're looking for is "person who experiences ejaculation".

I think it should be ‘people who may or may not have ejaculated but have the body formed to do so’.

@DadJoke

“Some women and trans men” is perfectly reasonable as I said earlier, and if it assuages gender critical peoples’ irritation too, that’s great.

This is not what you said last night.

Are you admitting that you were being unreasonable?

'Some' women....

ffs, this is sex based to the point that if a biological female does not menstruate or does not menopause it is a medical problem that needs investigation.

No, I won't be pretending that this is not something that affects all women. Women and (TM/NB/whatever other words) will do fine. The 50% of the human race who are female are affected by this, we get to choose the frigging words for it. The other 50% are going to have to get over themselves.

@DadJoke

“Some women and trans men” is perfectly reasonable as I said earlier, and if it assuages gender critical peoples’ irritation too, that’s great.

It actually doesn’t matter whether you approve or not. It is totally immaterial to my decision making around accepting or rejecting what language is used to discuss my needs.

Ok, I assume that is settled then.

I will try to find a forum where men discuss erectile dysfunction. I will burst in and introduce myself as a woman and tell them that they are being horribly non-inclusive.

I will let them know that my preference is for them to call themselves penis people with erectile dysfunction. But I will say that I will be completely ok with them saying that they are men as long as they in every sentence say “men and transwomen”.

DadJoke, given your commitment to inclusion, is there any particular forum you can recommend where men (and transwomen) discuss erectile dysfunction?

A thread full of outrage at strawman arguments and ad hominems from what I see when I last contributed!

No one is being told they can't describe themself as a woman, unless I've very much misunderstood.

You've very much misunderstood.