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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's Hour 18/11/2021 Nancy Kelley CEO of Stonewall

451 replies

Abitofalark · 17/11/2021 23:32

From the programme notes:

"Nancy Kelley is CEO of Stonewall, the largest LGBT rights charity in Europe. She speaks to Emma about her organisation’s work and gives her reaction to recent high-profile withdrawals from Stonewall’s Diversity Champions workplace inclusion scheme, including the BBC."

Hmmm...yes, we've heard - and dissected - the previous pronouncement from that quarter about the BBC pulling out of the Stonewall scheme. Let's see what waffle and spin come out in this interview.

OP posts:
ClawedButler · 18/11/2021 13:20

Yes, I feel so much for JK who has been nothing but reasoned and dignified. It's like the bloody Monthy Python scene.

BURN THE WITCH!
Why?
She's a hateful transphobic bigot
Based on what evidence?
Er...I can't think of any right now, but, she should be really careful what she says

FlyingOink · 18/11/2021 13:22

If my ideology had more holes in it than a hedgehog's hoodie, I wouldn't want it scrutinised by anyone either.
Grin

Awkwardy · 18/11/2021 13:27

The sad thing is, if they’d decided not to adopt such a rigid ideological position they could have done so much more. Campaign for better healthcare, more research, third spaces. A way of ensuring trans people can take part in sport without damaging womens rights. Not controversial. Would have improved things for trans people.

Is it too late to hope for some of that?

Abitofalark · 18/11/2021 13:32

@nauticant

It immediately made me think of "slytherins" Abitofalark. Apparently one of the four Houses at Hogwarts School.
Thanks. I'd never heard of slytherins but Hogwarts, yes. And not heard of Dolores Umbridge before.
OP posts:
JustSpeculation · 18/11/2021 13:33

I’m still confused as to how she accepts that biological sex cannot change and yet she literally thinks transwomen are women

@FreeBritnee

Not difficult. She either has a conception of "woman" which has nothing to do with sex, or she believes that illogicalities are somehow a bit Zen (as in "the sound of one hand clapping").

I'm really excited to find out which.

Balonziaga · 18/11/2021 13:38

EB getting quite a lot of stick on Twitter for being too informed aggressive

Have just sent positive feedback to WH and going to add my support and praise on Twitter if anyone wants to add their voice....

twitter.com/Emmabarnett/status/1461251909621370880

Fluffymule · 18/11/2021 13:38

Maybe Nancy has the same skill set as Layla Moran and can just 'see' or 'know' things we normals can't possibly understand?

nopuppiesallowed · 18/11/2021 13:43

I hope that Emma Barnett is reading these comments! She definitely is an ace interviewer - and the best thing about her? Like Andrew Neil, she asks incisive questions, cuts through waffle and at the end of interviews, no-one knows exactly what she, personally, believes!

Feelingoktoday · 18/11/2021 13:43

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

So, Nancy Kelly said that TWAW - but not biological women and that what JKR was not transphobic, but might be hurtful.

The TRA will eviscerate her. She will be dangling off the end of a purity spiral by the evening news.

This. New CEO next week?
RepentMotherfucker · 18/11/2021 13:48

@Awkwardy

The sad thing is, if they’d decided not to adopt such a rigid ideological position they could have done so much more. Campaign for better healthcare, more research, third spaces. A way of ensuring trans people can take part in sport without damaging womens rights. Not controversial. Would have improved things for trans people.

Is it too late to hope for some of that?

For me the misogyny behind the curtain is on show. So, yes, it's too late. The ideology is corrupt.
RepentMotherfucker · 18/11/2021 13:50

Just listening now.

JFC the fucking smiley chuckley voice Hmm

Datun · 18/11/2021 13:51

All I'm hearing is yeah you can be gender critical as long as you shut up about it hmm

Yes, and we've heard that demand several times.

It's really weird. It won't stand up long-term.

It has to be because they cannot, ever, be unequivocal, otherwise it would blow the whole thing up. They have to skirt round the actual issue and hope no one nails it down for them.

That's why she wouldn't, unequivocally, say that J. K. Rowling is transphobic, only saying that because of her platform...because she's influential, she can't say things that are harmful... right up to implying that if she says, publicly, that she wants a female only refuge, the implication is that all transwomen are predators. Otherwise known as a massive strawman.

And on that note, I wish Emma had drilled down a little further.

Because it's a central strand to the argument - that you're not allowed to say that men are a statistical risk.

Yes, she was full of contradictions, and slippery as a bloody eel covered in oil.

No you can't change sex, but transwomen are literally women. We're not saying you can't say mother, we're saying you have to have an additional, inclusive word. (Which is unequivocally untrue). We're not saying you can't have women only refuges, you just can't say so out loud because it's implying that transwomen are a risk. We're not saying that lesbians are prejudice, we're just not acknowledging that lesbianism is a sexual orientation, just a preference.

The slipperiest answers I think I've ever heard.

And I'm not buying this cosy, giggly, I don't know anything about that bollocks, either.

And I'll be willing to bet that there were some conditions attached to that interview, one of which would be you can't ask me for the definition of the word woman. Or lesbian. Because there won't be an interviewer alive, on hearing the phrase yes I believe transwomen are literally women, who wouldn't then ask for your definition of the word.

Hazelnut5 · 18/11/2021 14:11

The latest cervical cancer screening campaign in Scotland does not use the word ‘woman’. It’s ‘those eligible’ or ‘anyone with a cervix’. www.gov.scot/news/cervical-screening-campaign/

I’ve had a lot of ads for it, and they’re all the same. No mention of woman anywhere.

I wrote to my MSP to complain and got a feeble reply back which completely missed the issue: It is important to note that not only women are eligible for a cervical screening appointment. Trans men, non-binary people, and intersex people may also be eligible to attend and it is important that the wording of the campaign reflects this.

So much for NK saying the Scottish Government hasn’t erased gendered terminology.

littlbrowndog · 18/11/2021 14:14

Agree hazel.

I wrote to all my politicians representatives in Scotland about this same thing

Didn’t even respond to my point on that

I like this

Woman's Hour 18/11/2021 Nancy Kelley CEO of Stonewall
WhereYouLeftIt · 18/11/2021 14:14

David Thompson (Nolan podcast) has posted Stonewall's feedback to the Scottish Government, making it explicit that their "priorities for the year ahead" should include "removing remaining gendered terms such as 'mother' from your maternity policy".

twitter.com/dt_ni/status/1461311137107136517

Well someone is a big fat liar.

BettyFilous · 18/11/2021 14:31

@Abitofalark

Fudge and mudge and a mass of contradictions and slitherings from the Stonewall boss. She agreed that the BBC should treat subjects impartially but in the next breath that Stonewall should have influence over BBC policy, while at the same time trying to avoid admitting that its lobbying and influence over organisations in its schemes incur any penalty for non compliance or gain marks for compliance.

She is a cosy wife and mother with wife and adopted children but she is slithery about admitting that Stonewall dictated glossaries of terms that exclude women's status and language such as mother, and washes her hands of responsibility for anything the Scots government did on that front. She taints lesbians with prejudice about whom they fancy but is not challenged specifically about the basis of lesbianism and therefore whether an allegation of prejudice is even relevant or legitimate so the slur is left hanging and certainly not disavowed.

She knows and hears no evil, sees no evil in her selective amnesia - knows nothing about AJ Rowling when it comes to the accusation of phobia but maintains the notion and smear of harm caused - and was not pulled up and asked What about harm to women and girls in public, in workplaces and schools? Knows nothing about Kathleen Stock but smears that there have been issues about her for a long time - would that be from when she dared to raise a question about the wisdom of allowing self identification given its implications especially for women? - is for freedom of speech in universities but slithers over any Stonewall responsibility for influencing what went on there.

Stonewall is on the back foot and will never forgive, much less acknowledge the contribution of AJ Rowling to women, including the L, which Stonewall is supposed to represent and which it hides behind within the blanket LGB, because what she did in speaking out was instrumental in bringing us to this point where Stonewall is having to slither about to obscure things it has been doing and has previously been so gung ho about.

This interview, trailing along in the wake of the two Belfast men Thompson and Nolan in their Radio Ulster podcast series, only serves to highlight the abysmal failure of BBC journalism over several years to interrogate the subject and the woeful fact that Woman's Hour, the very place that should have been all over it, censored its own presenter and weakly followed the identity band wagon at the expense of women, whose perspective it purports to represent.

Well said!
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 18/11/2021 14:33

*So if nk insists that tw actually are women because of inner essence, not their bodies or their needs because of them, then they don’t need to use the word that’s for the sex of adult human females that is delineated in uk law. Or our sex based protections.

So nk should be expected to answer that question, because it pulls the thread out of all gender ideology.*

Nail on the head here. She admits that there is a difference between biological women and women as per her wafty idiosyncratic definition. Fine - I don't need to police her thinking. But lets keep the word 'woman' to mean biological women and she can invent/ acquire another word to mean whatever her wafty additional conceptualisation is. Then we can keep the biological sex-based protected spaces and sports categories for biological women. And we can say that biological women need smears and breast screening.

Datun · 18/11/2021 14:34

@WhereYouLeftIt

David Thompson (Nolan podcast) has posted Stonewall's feedback to the Scottish Government, making it explicit that their "priorities for the year ahead" should include "removing remaining gendered terms such as 'mother' from your maternity policy".

twitter.com/dt_ni/status/1461311137107136517

Well someone is a big fat liar.

Bloody hell, one of their requests is that they communicate their inclusion policy to their employees at periodic intervals.

What, like Big Brother Is Watching You, coming over the loudspeaker every couple of hours?

Fariha31 · 18/11/2021 14:40

I can think of a good new word, how about they use the word 'Men'? Isen't that free right now, Im sure no one would mind.

beigebrownblue · 18/11/2021 14:48

@Fariha31

I can think of a good new word, how about they use the word 'Men'? Isen't that free right now, Im sure no one would mind.
Fab comment. Lol.
beigebrownblue · 18/11/2021 14:49

WhereYouLeftIt

David Thompson (Nolan podcast) has posted Stonewall's feedback to the Scottish Government, making it explicit that their "priorities for the year ahead" should include "removing remaining gendered terms such as 'mother' from your maternity policy".

twitter.com/dt_ni/status/1461311137107136517

Well someone is a big fat liar.

xxxxxxxxx

Fuck.

Well if MOTHER'S no LONGER EXIST then perhaps we can all go on holiday for a few months and the government or Stonewall will send someone round to homeschool, breastfeed, mop up spills, do the shopping...etc

MammaLovesLeopard · 18/11/2021 14:53

@BoreOfWhabylon

I'm imagining Dame Jenni listening and cheering her on from her own kitchen table.

You'd think so. Jenni has praised and liked Stephen Nolan tweets but said nothing at all re WH/EB.

Yup.
BloodinGutters · 18/11/2021 14:53

I’m fine with them using ‘woman essence’.

It doesn’t relate to needs based on sexed body or to needs because of men’s entitlement to our sexed bodies/violence/misogyny. So doesn’t impact our legal rights protections.

And it illustrates it’s based on stereotypes.

The majority of women would never identify with having a ‘woman essence’ if phrased this clearly and those that do are entitled to their beliefs, when it doesn’t take away our legal rights or safeguards. Which without the obfuscation of twaw it doesn’t.

Then society can move towards viewing those who belief in twaw the same way as the likes of the quiverful movement. Where we can respect their right to religious beliefs, and certainly never discriminate against individuals who hold these beliefs, while being honest about how regressive they are and call out the harm they cause to those growing up within this movement.

(Google the Duggars if the analogy doesn’t make sense).

MammaLovesLeopard · 18/11/2021 14:55

@socialworker222

EB is great
👏👏👏👏👏
RedToothBrush · 18/11/2021 14:56

@Manderleyagain

I'm continously amazed this is finally happening.
The power of the truth.

You can not use authoritarianism to conceal the truth completely.

It always comes to the surface one way or another.

Thats what terrifies authoritarians so much and why they try and use every method they can to produce a wall of silence.

The truth is something compelling and flows like water. It starta with a drop or a trickle but at full force has the ability to topple even the most well built of buildings.

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