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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Campaign in Scotland

161 replies

Cismyfatarse · 09/11/2021 21:21

Please, if you live in Scotland, get the message to your MSPs.

forwomenscotland.eaction.org.uk/MSP

Follow the link and it is all very easy. If you can share far and wide, that would be great.

OP posts:
FluffyFlimFlam · 22/11/2021 18:35

Your Conservative one is identical to mine, anotherchocolate but SNP one very different than either of the SNP ones I've had.

CharlieParley · 22/11/2021 19:00

Massive grumblings within the party, yes, anotherchocolate. But that just makes it worse for us, because there's fault lines already, well gulfs of disagreement on the First Minister's unwillingness to hold a referendum. She loves to use the threat/promise of one but it's all just hot air. There's a number of steps both within the SNP's power and necessary for an independent country that should have been put in place years ago, and there's not even a plan to do them. There'll be even more hot air and promises/threats of a second referendum in six months or whatever.

IIRC, someone did a collage of all her promises/threats to hold a second referendum that have appeared on front pages in the last six years or so. Telling.

(Mind, there's also no money in SNP coffers. It's all going on spin doctors and salaries.)

So anyway, there's real unhappiness about this and entrenched sides, lots of animosity. Add GRA reform and there's even more strife. It's also become a question of loyalty - support the FM, support GRA reform.

2319inprogress · 22/11/2021 22:48

Wow anotherchocolate that SNP reply!!

Rhannion · 23/11/2021 02:06

IMHO Scotland doesn’t deserve independence if the government here can’t protect the rights of women and children in Scotland.
Our rights as women are far more important than independence and the SNP/ Scottish Greens cannot be trusted in any way or form now, with only a few notable exceptions like Jo Cherry who is under huge pressure at the moment however she is a strong, decent woman.

Rhannion · 23/11/2021 02:13

The SNP as a party stinks with the GRC, all that “ missing “ money that was donated by party members for yet another referendum, the bullying of Jo Cherry, the two appalling Mhairis ( Hunter & Black) the inadequacy of the health minister, the other bullies in the party, the vile misogynist wee paddy and the appalling Slater...the list just goes on and on.
Inadequate, lying , bullying, dubious, greedy and venal are all good words to describe the SNP/ Scottish Greens.

Rhannion · 23/11/2021 02:17

@anotherchocolate

Conservative:

Thank you for contacting me about the proposed reforms to the Gender Recognition Act.

A recent consultation on this legislation showed that four in ten organisations did not support the proposed reforms, which include reducing the time it takes for people to legally change their gender from two years to three months, and allowing people aged 16 and above to apply to change their gender.

These consultation responses confirm what we already knew – this is a sensitive topic and opinions are firmly split. We must protect women’s rights and take concerns that those rights are being eroded very seriously. For now, we await the details of this legislation and stand ready to scrutinise each aspect of it.

The Scottish Conservatives will not stand by and allow this SNP-Green Government to push this legislation through Parliament without all parties’ concerns receiving due consideration. There must be a full and informed debate on this issue and that this can only truly be done once we see what legislation is being brought forward.

Thank you once again for taking the time to contact me on this issue.

SNP:

Thanks for your email.

Yes, I am aware of the proposals you mention and I share several of your concerns.

I very much agree that there should be safe spaces such as hospital wards, refuges, changing facilities and toilets where women and children do not have to interact with ‘intact biological males’. I also agree that removing the need for a gender dysphoria diagnosis is concerning. In fact I have met with some transgender people who are not in agreement with this either. They consider that gender dysphoria is a condition which should be independently medically assessed. And they also consider that a change of gender is a serious step, should not be undertaken lightly, and should certainly not be rushed. So clearly there are different views even among trans people.

As I understand it, children are not affected by the proposed legislation.

On the specific point of single sex prisons, I did meet with the organisation ‘Keep Prison Single Sex’ and subsequently wrote to the Scottish Prison Service. I attach their reply and I have to say it concerns me as well. However, at least there is to be a review as you will see in their letter.

We have not quite got to the stage of voting on Gender Recognition but it is certainly an issue which is on my agenda. I hope I have reassured you that I am also concerned about this subject. However, if you wish to discuss any of this further I am happy to do so.

Almost fell off my chair at the SNP one. Grumblings within the party?

That’s an very interesting reply...
blueberryporridge · 23/11/2021 13:54

I appreciate that there remain concerns about this legislation, and I am always willing to engage in the spirit of good faith with those who hold a differing position on this from myself. As a disabled woman and a feminist, however, it is clear to me that securing the human rights of another marginalised group takes nothing from my own.

This from the woman who is well entrenched as an SNP woke, and likes to use the transphobic card to shut down any discussion she doesn't like.

talkingdeadscot · 23/11/2021 14:23

@blueberryporridge

I appreciate that there remain concerns about this legislation, and I am always willing to engage in the spirit of good faith with those who hold a differing position on this from myself. As a disabled woman and a feminist, however, it is clear to me that securing the human rights of another marginalised group takes nothing from my own.

This from the woman who is well entrenched as an SNP woke, and likes to use the transphobic card to shut down any discussion she doesn't like.

As a disabled woman and a feminist I would argue that a full Equality Impact should be commissioned before you decide what's best for me. Thanks
FluffyFlimFlam · 23/11/2021 16:48

Yeah. I felt like writing back with "as a disabled woman and a feminist, I disagree... we have reached wokemate."

Being a disabled woman and a feminist does not mean you are automatically right. Which seemed to be what that nugget was slipped in for.

"Your level in the oppression Olympics is irrelevant. Try again. "

FluffyFlimFlam · 23/11/2021 16:49

My post is addressed to the SNP email, not you talkingdeadscott! Grin In case it read that way!!

talkingdeadscot · 23/11/2021 17:03

Wokemate Grin

Meagaidh · 23/11/2021 17:35

I emailed my MSPs a couple of weeks ago and this is the response from the Green Party MSP:

'The Scottish Green Party is proud to support rights for all women, including disabled women, lesbian, bisexual and trans women. We recognise the intersectional nature of power, which creates additional barriers for women facing multiple discriminations, and the necessity for feminists to work together to dismantle the patriarchy under which we live.

In accordance with this pledge, and our robust and proactive commitment to the rights of LGBT+ people, our manifesto commits us to deliver reform to the Gender Recognition Act, including statutory self-declaration. This commitment is reflected in the A fairer, greener Scotland Programme for Government, which embeds the cooperation agreement between ourselves and the Scottish Government. A fairer, greener Scotland confirms that:

“Within the next year we will bring forward the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, removing the current medical requirements and reducing the time that applicants for gender recognition need to have lived in their acquired gender from two years to three months.”

This reform is long overdue, after considerable consultation, and we will be working hard to ensure that it is now completed as soon as possible. As the European Court of Human Rights has confirmed, the human right to privacy requires that trans people are afforded proper legal gender recognition. Such fundamental human rights are not a matter for debate or delay, and we therefore robustly reject the divisive and procrastinating suggestion of a citizens’ assembly to discuss their existence.

Sadly, there has been much misinformation about what GRA reform does or doesn’t involve. The only effect of this reform will be to make the process by which a trans person can obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate less stressful, unfair, disrespectful and dangerous. It will have no effect upon the use of women’s spaces such as public toilets or upon participation in women’s sports, both of which are dealt with by the Equality Act. Neither will it change decisions about the type of prison to which offenders are sent, decisions which are made for individual prisoners on a case by case basis.

There is much work still to be done in protecting and enhancing the rights and the wellbeing of people throughout Scotland, including women, especially women prisoners, and LGBT+ people. This work includes many policy priorities set out in A fairer, greener Scotland: inclusive education, comprehensive childcare, an end to conversion therapy, access to trans healthcare and effective action on domestic abuse and sexual violence. We in the Scottish Greens are proud to have been in the forefront of many campaigns for equality, dignity and fair treatment, and will continue to speak and act for all who are still marginalised and oppressed within our society.'

I consider this rather ingenuous as the Equality Act is proving to be not fit-for-purpose with regard to women's rights.

FluffyFlimFlam · 23/11/2021 17:41

Absolutely agree, Meagaidh. In fact one of my SNP responses basically admits that as she says that transwomen are already using these women only spaces! Contradicting what her SNP pal said to me that the GRA changes don't matter because women's spaces are protected by the Equality Act.

So the GRA changes don't matter because simultaneously transwomen are already using women's spaces AND they are never going to because of the Equality Act.

slow clap

2319inprogress · 24/11/2021 00:00

rights for all women, including disabled women, lesbian, bisexual and trans women
Spot the odd one out Hmm

Forced teaming: Predators use strategies to create an immediate sense of trust; often giving a sense that “we're in the same boat.” It's hard to rebuff this without feeling rude.

Waitwhat23 · 24/11/2021 00:15

I've had only one reply - from an SNP representative and it was considerably better than I was expecting. The need for same sex spaces/exemptions under the Equality Act was agreed with and he acknowledged my concerns. Pleasantly surprised.

I'm not holding my breath for the rest of the replies - I haven't even had holding emails back.

Meagaidh · 24/11/2021 05:53

@blueberryporridge

I appreciate that there remain concerns about this legislation, and I am always willing to engage in the spirit of good faith with those who hold a differing position on this from myself. As a disabled woman and a feminist, however, it is clear to me that securing the human rights of another marginalised group takes nothing from my own.

This from the woman who is well entrenched as an SNP woke, and likes to use the transphobic card to shut down any discussion she doesn't like.

I received this as well, and earlier in the email she says:

'3. Removing the need for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria: I do not believe that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria should be required for someone to receive a GRC. The strides made in the ICD-11 by removing being transgender as a mental health condition are positive and I consider this reform to the GRA to simply be a case of the law catching up with advancements in medical understanding.'

This is the bit I am concerned about; there has been an exponential growth in the number of young people (mainly girls) saying they are trans that there must be something else going on here. If the need to have a diagnosis is removed, does that mean she thinks it's right to 'affirm and celebrate'?

Looking back, I can see how confused I was about all sorts of issues when I was in my mid teens, but I can also remember being utterly certain about some things and thinking my parents were stupid, mean and unloving by challenging those beliefs. Isn't this what a normal adolescence looks like? There's a good take on this by Peter Bell in his response to Stephen Paton's article in the National - I don't always agree with him, but this piece resonated.

I'm still working out my response, to my MSP, but I suspect she has a closed mind.

Meagaidh · 24/11/2021 06:06

So what can be done? I feel politically powerless as my SNP, Green, Labour and LibDem MSPs all support GRA reform and all signed up to SW's 'pledge' prior to the election. I couldn't vote for any of them and neither Conservative nor Alba appealed, but we had an excellent independent (who had been thrown out of the Greens for asking for further debate re GRA). He didn't get in, but at least I was able to cast my list vote.

I'm supporting ForWomenScotland and also SexMatters and persisting in asking MSPs and Local Councillors about the issue - what else can I do? Suggestions, please!

CharlieParley · 24/11/2021 10:21

@Meagaidh

So what can be done? I feel politically powerless as my SNP, Green, Labour and LibDem MSPs all support GRA reform and all signed up to SW's 'pledge' prior to the election. I couldn't vote for any of them and neither Conservative nor Alba appealed, but we had an excellent independent (who had been thrown out of the Greens for asking for further debate re GRA). He didn't get in, but at least I was able to cast my list vote.

I'm supporting ForWomenScotland and also SexMatters and persisting in asking MSPs and Local Councillors about the issue - what else can I do? Suggestions, please!

Have you been to see them? I found that going to see my MSPs in person was much more productive than sending an email. (This isn't for everyone though, if you don't feel comfortable meeting in person, apart from writing to your MSPs, you can also write letters to the editor of papers.)

I would also recommend, whether you see them or write to them, to find out what each of your MSPs is interested in, what committees they are involved in and then tailor your letter to each MSP, preferably with a personal connection from you.

(Say, if your MSP is involved with education and you have kids or work in education, you write about your specific concerns in your area, if it's sport, you make it about that.)

You can still do this now by responding to these replies you got.

Also, send them an actual letter, it stands out more. Furthermore, however much they dismiss you, your letter or email will become part of the National Archives of Scotland. Even if this goes through, they will not be able to claim they didn't know because it will be there in black and white.

FluffyFlimFlam · 24/11/2021 10:40

Thank you CharlieP. Good ideas. I think I might start writing some physical letters then. And trying to formulate my own words.

I got a response from another Conservative but it was brief and fairly non-committal. It did mention that he was receiving a large volume of correspondence on this issue though!

Meagaidh · 25/11/2021 06:59

Thank you, CharlieParley - great ideas. I am quite happy to see my MSPs, but none of them seem to be holding their usual surgeries atm. I've seen many of them over the years re climate change - they all treated me with condescending kindness as though I was a crank. Hope they will come to realise sooner rather than later that we are right about this as well! Letters are a good idea - I do know this, but had forgotten. I have PVGs for volunteering with young people, so thanks for the suggestion to use this as an approach. I also have daughters! Thanks again.

As an aside, climate change is the most important thing as if we don't sort it, nothing else will matter. But this danger to women and girls has to be stopped - I'm so angry that we're having to deal with such levels of misogyny in the 21st century.

Meagaidh · 25/11/2021 19:35

@blueberryporridge

I appreciate that there remain concerns about this legislation, and I am always willing to engage in the spirit of good faith with those who hold a differing position on this from myself. As a disabled woman and a feminist, however, it is clear to me that securing the human rights of another marginalised group takes nothing from my own.

This from the woman who is well entrenched as an SNP woke, and likes to use the transphobic card to shut down any discussion she doesn't like.

My reply to the woman well entrenched in SNP woke: (sorry about the length - you should have seen the first version):

Thank you for your email and I am encouraged that you are willing to engage in debate on this subject. However, I am not encouraged by the way SNP has treated one of your own who has expressed reservations on the party’s position. It has been extremely difficult to have any public debate, as anyone who is perceived to be gender critical or even asks questions about the consequences of current and proposed law is ‘cancelled’.

I hope I have made my position regarding trans women clear; ‘real’ trans women, I.e. those who have medically/surgically transitioned, are not likely to pose a threat. Indeed, they are likely to be as much the losers in the current climate as are women.

My main concern is that we have seen for some years now how men who intend harm to women have used loopholes in the law to access vulnerable women. We have seen it in prisons and in refuges, and we now see it in public toilets, retail changing rooms and schools.

It is possible for a man to receive a GRC without changing any aspect of his male body. The two year ‘living as a woman’ requirement has not prevented abusive men to gain a GRC and go on to assault and rape women. Reducing the time to three months will increase the numbers exponentially. As you recognise, trans women are already accessing women’s safe spaces, which mean that men in dresses are also doing so.

I am aware that SNP and the Scottish Green Party committed to the change in the law, but as both parties have signed up to Stonewall’s Equality Index, of course you would. What I am asking you, begging you, is to listen to women’s voices, particularly those who speak for the vulnerable women who cannot speak for themselves.

You say that ‘ the people of Scotland have already expressed their resounding assent to these plans’, but GRA reform was not mentioned in any of the electoral information that came through my door. Most of your votes were from those for whom Independence was the priority, and this was the main message you delivered.

Although not directly covered by the law, I am extremely concerned about the welfare of young girls. Many of the young people who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria have multiple issues and concentrating solely on their expression of ‘born in the wrong body’ is not helping them in the long term. I would hate to think that our government is not concerned about the number of young people who are encouraged to undergo traumatic surgery and hormone treatment, and about the numbers who are now detransitioning. I have teaching friends in the central belt who say 20% of their female pupils are now dressing and attempting to behave like boys. We have been aware of semantic contagion for decades and have seen the effects in e.g. self harm. Of any group of young people declaring they are transgender, there will be some who are still saying it in five, ten, twenty years’ time, but most realise it isn’t really what they feel. The problem is that no one knows initially which of these groups any individual child falls into. This is why the Government’s and Local Authorities’ ‘affirm and celebrate’ approach is so dangerous.

Stonewall has managed to infiltrate (I do not use this word lightly) so many of our public institutions, political parties and businesses that very few of you are standing back and thinking objectively about the dangers of allowing predatory men into women’s spaces. Phrases such as ‘sex assigned at birth’ and ‘same gender attraction’ have become common parlance, despite neither being correct. Words matter; sex matters.

I do hope that you have listened to the Nolan Investigates Stonewall podcast on BBC Sounds.

Please, please reconsider the GRA reform and develop a working strategy to combat the rising rates of violent crime against women and girls perpetuated by men, some of them pretending to be women.

malloo · 25/11/2021 19:41

That's a great letter Meagaidh, I might pinch some bits of it if you don't mind!

Sexx · 30/11/2021 18:43

I received a reply today from a labour msp, not directly quoting the suicide statistic but has provided sources. I find it interesting that it is wrong to say trans is a mental health issue but at the same time if we don't make it easier for them to legally transition then they'll attempt suicide Confused

"Thank you for your email raising your concerns about the proposed reform of the Gender Recognition Act.

As a new MSP I am still in the process of setting up my office and hiring staff and this is taking longer than anticipated leading to delays in my replying to emails.

I agree that legislation should consider the needs of women and girls but do not believe reform to the Gender Recognition Act threatens these rights.

I am a member of the Scottish Labour Party because Labour is the party of equality, committed to achieving a world free from all forms of bigotry and discrimination.

I believe reform of the Gender Recognition Act will benefit trans people greatly, but I also hope I can allay some of your concerns regarding this reform:

  1. Gathering the evidence and data required under the current process over a period of 2 years is an undue burden placed upon trans people over what is a matter of self-identification. Self-identification is already used to change one’s sex on a passport (Source) or driver’s license (Source) and therefore, is the process for most administrative capacities (e.g. opening a bank account).
  2. A 16-year-old can already enter into a civil partnership, pay taxes and change their name without parental consent. Therefore, allowing someone to socially transition, which may include applying for a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), at 16 without parental consent is in keeping with young peoples’ other rights. This reform can also play a key role in combatting mental health difficulties including suicidal ideation and attempted suicide (Source).
  3. The current system of requiring a diagnosis of gender dysphoria can be demeaning to trans people as it means being diagnosed with a mental illness when they are not mentally ill. The only person that can decide if they are trans is the individual themselves. I would follow the lead of the World Health Organisation in classifying this issue as one of sexual health, not mental health (Source)

With regards to your comments on single-sex spaces I would note: Trans men and women are not a recent phenomenon and have always used facilities such as changing rooms and bathrooms that correspond to their gender identity - as indeed they would have to in order to receive a GRC (Source)

With regards to prisons, the majority of trans prisoners do not currently have a GRC so GRA reform would present no greater danger to women in prison. Nonetheless, each case should be carefully examined by the Local Transgender Case board, as is current practice (Source)

For these reasons, Labour would work with people to update the Gender Recognition Act to enable a process for gender self-identification while also continuing to support the implementation of the Equality Act, including the single sex exemption which allows the provision of women only spaces. This law rightly assumes the inclusion of trans women, except in specific circumstances.

Thank you for raising your concerns with me about this very important matter. I hope this clarifies my position on this issue.

Kind Regards

Mercedes Villalba (she/her)
MSP for North East Scotland
Scottish Labour Shadow Minister for Environment and Biodiversity"

Meagaidh · 30/11/2021 19:19

They're all saying they don't believe GRA threatens women's and girls' rights. Haven't they read about women's prisons, women's refuges, women's changing rooms, the plight of girls who won't (for very good reasons) use the mixed sex toilets?

I read Jennifer Bilek's 2018 article again today which explains why this ideology has taken over the world within 20 years, so here's the link if you haven't seen it.

thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/#.WowaHsS0mwM.twitter

Also for anyone who hasn't signed the declaration - here it is:

www.womensdeclaration.com/en/

weebarra · 03/12/2021 20:04

Quite a measured reply from Foysol Choudhury:

Thank you for writing to me with regard to possible reform of the Gender Recognition Act and the Scottish Government’s proposals.

The Scottish Labour manifesto for the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections confirmed that we would take the Equality Act 2010 into account in our approach to all policy development. The Scottish Labour Women’s manifesto contains some commitments on services for women and girls.

I am committed to ensuring that any proposed legislative changes do not place women and girls at risk. The recent debates in the Scottish Parliament, to which Scottish Labour has contributed, during the international 16 Days of Action Against Violence against Women, have highlighted the need to do much more to ensure women’s safety.

Whilst you have referenced the consultation exercise undertaken by the Scottish Government, the Government has not yet brought forward the proposals for legislative change. Along with my colleagues, I will scrutinise any proposals carefully if presented, and your observations are helpful in that regard.

Thank you for writing to me on this important issue.

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