What are your views on drag?

[Ladyday1995]

I never really started thinking about this until the other day. But honestly I personally can't stand it. It's so completely insulting to women, it's an ugly caricature based on strange men's ill informed ideas about femininity. Everything about it is so gross, the cattiness, bizarre sexual overtones, the disgusting makeup and clothing. I just cant understand things like "drag queen story time". They've done that at my local museum much to my horror.

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

The worst is when people try to dragsplain that drag is an homage to women? Homage?

Taking all the most offensive stereotypes about women (comedy breasts, slutty clothes, garish makeup, bitchiness), terms like 'fishy' and 'tuna tube', names like 'Anna Bortion'...and then telling us we are just bigoted old dinosaurs because we don't like it? That we should embrace this homage to women?

Fuck off.

Also didn't someone of drag race say something ridiculous like 'a woman could never do this' erm okay

@Fluffymule However I remember Lily Savage back when Paul O'Grady was very successful with his act and I didn't feel the same at that point.

I've just watched some old Lily Savage videos and I think I understand what the difference is. Decades ago the character could say the unsayable. Society was more reserved but Lily could sit on a cosy chat show and say what Paul couldn't. A lot of what Lily said was political or poked fun at hypocritical moral standards. The fact that Lily was really a man dressed as a woman was not the joke. Women were not the joke. From what I can see, sometimes how men treat women was the joke, with the character of Lily occasionally turning that treatment back on men. I can also see how the female character allowed gay men a freedom to do and say things they didn't otherwise have. But women, as a class, weren't the target of the jokes I saw.

I can also absolutely see why Paul O Grady tired of being Lily and has stated he won't be returning to the character. It was of a time and a place. And for a little while it allowed him to say things he may not otherwise have been able to in some settings. But the world moved on and he doesn't need to be a character to do that anymore.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that drag needed to be dispensed with. But the drag I see a lot of today is lazy misogyny instead of well crafted comedy using drag to make a point. It's just reductive stereotypes that are supposedly funny because of the wig and fake boobs. Drag used as a tool to allow and make a statement within creative, intelligent comedy would be fine. It just doesn't seem to be that anymore.

Yes, I think you're spot on there @trancepants

If you don't like it then maybe just don't go and watch it?

It's no different to someone having a preference for any other kind of performer or comedian, everyone's taste is different.

To those saying drag is offensive, I don't think it has to be, but also there are many types of offensive comedy which don't tend to get talked about on here anywhere near as much for some reason

@strawberrydonuts

If you don't like it then maybe just don't go and watch it?

It's no different to someone having a preference for any other kind of performer or comedian, everyone's taste is different.

To those saying drag is offensive, I don't think it has to be, but also there are many types of offensive comedy which don't tend to get talked about on here anywhere near as much for some reason

Oh well, if there is OTHER offensive comedy then let's just drop everything and deal with that instead.

I don't have a moral/ political/ etc objection to it, but I don't enjoy it as a form of entertainment, find it a bit cringe.

Don't like it but each to their own. I feel neutral about it and don't find it offensive.

It’s vile : misogynistic, ugly and as dated and vile as punch abs Judy - 🤮

I don't like it but do feel it has its place as an art form and a rich history.
It was ok when it was in its place in clubs and cabaret.

Now it is mainstream its become cliched and ridiculous and wildly inappropriate.
We have very little positive representation of disability in every day life yet local libraries have completely pushed this issue aside and gone for 'Drag Queen Story Time' to raise awareness of 'diversity'. FFS.

I don't want it banned but like other forms of adult entertainment, it shouldn't be all over the bloody place. (I don't mean stripping and porn as acceptable forms of entertainment. I'd happily see them banned off the face of the earth)

Personally I don't like it, for many of the reasons already mentioned.

However, entertainment aimed at an adult audience should not be sanitised to the extent of ensuring that no one is offended, ever. That comes too dangerously close to cut ailing other freedoms for my liking. Much as I personally dislike it, I think I would overall be more uncomfortable with the idea of banning drag acts from adult clubs, etc.

But I am absolutely 100% against drag as family entertainment, especially when targeting specifically at children. Every shade of wrong.

I hate it. It is to sexism what blackface is to racism.

Drag is an insult to all women.

There was an ad popped up on my Facebook page recently for a deodorant called "Wild". Supposed to be raising money for an LGBTQ++++++++++++ helpline. It features a gurning, posing drag artist (or woman, as they seem to expect to be called these days).
It just made me wonder what LGB people think about constantly being represented by pantomime dames ( see also Keir Starmer's meeting with members of the LGBTQ+ community) I think I would be hurrying to join the LGB Alliance...

To those saying drag is offensive, I don't think it has to be, but also there are many types of offensive comedy which don't tend to get talked about on here anywhere near as much for some reason.

That rather reminds me of that sneering remark commonly used on MN to minimise other people's concerns and experiences "Well you must have a very nice life if that's all you've got to worry about!". 'There are worse or other equally bad things' applies to virtually every complaint or problem.

People probably don't discuss the offensiveness of Roy Chubby Brown or Jim Davidson etc because we all already know they're offensive - what else is there to say? Whereas it's clear from discussions on here, plus the fact it's on prime time tv, that this is not the case when it comes to drag.

I don't want it banned but like other forms of adult entertainment, it shouldn't be all over the bloody place.

Yes, if adults like drag and want to go and see it, then that's fine, they can knock themselves out.

But it's a) adult entertainment and b) misogynistic and therefore I don't want to it on loads of adverts, in libraries, aimed at kids or on mainstream telly all the time.

Personally depicting women as subhuman for the delight of the entire nation is not drag. Though it certainly was blackface. Just my opinion.

I don't like it.

I also don't like that men dressed as women take older women's parts in plays (e'g. Hairspray).

I used to love it and enjoy the satire and comedy of the seasoned performers, who were all round entertainers. But now post drag race there seem to be fewer amazing performers and more narcissists who like makeup and heels looking for a platform or career boost and it’s a bit more dumb and nasty in tone. Especially now when I just watch it on tv instead of going to burlesque nights and clubs etc. Drag means something very different now to 15 years ago.

@kickupafuss

I don't like it.

I also don't like that men dressed as women take older women's parts in plays (e'g. Hairspray).

"men dressed as women" are taking things that belong to women in all kinds of areas recently - Olympic medals, seats on exec boards, first female USA five star general, literary awards, Girl Guide Leaders, to name but the few I came up with off the top of my head. Given time, I could fill the page

I used to have no issues with it. Perhaps a little ick but we all watched Priscilla Queen if the desert etc. Liked the Aussie on big brother etc.

More recently the drag I've seen isn't what I used to know it as and I've found it more offensive.

There was a thread on twitter last week detailing that it actually does have roots in black face; black men would dress up to be mocked on stage and then white men blacked up and dressed as women to also be mocked.

Yes I agree Trance.

Drag seems very old fashioned and naff to me, it’s really not my thing at all, but if others enjoy it they can crack on as far as I’m concerned.

Live & let live.

They are usually a grotesque representation of women. And they call each other names like 'b*tch', etc. in a pointedly misogynistic way. Males don't need to do woman face to dress up. David Bowie didn't. They must get a kick of being able to show disgust at women under the cover of this 'art'.

The corollary for me would be white people in blackface, calling each other the 'n' word.

Sorry, this was what was apparently found

twitter.com/potatoparameter/status/1456349641948246019?s=21

"drag shows were inspired by minstrel shows. they came about when white men decided to mock african american women's femininity."

"They performed comedic skits, dances and "wench" songs" according to wiki.

Nowt much changed except the black face.

@thirdfiddle I definitely see what you mean but I don’t think it’s always misogynistic. I don’t think drag has much to do with real women at all.

But the only exposure to drag I get is RuPaul. It’s so OTT and entertaining.

@Fluffymule

This has made me think;

I find the current wave of Drag, coming from and influenced by shows like Drag Race, pretty distasteful. I feel a wave of cruel misogyny underpins it and much of the language coming from it is offensive to me.

However I remember Lily Savage back when Paul O'Grady was very successful with his act and I didn't feel the same at that point. People here have mentioned Mrs Brown and I guess there's acts like Dame Edna and Hinge & Bracket, even Les Dawson with Cissie and Ada, and whilst they aren't particularly my first choice of comedy entertainment I don't get the same visceral feelings about them.

I'm trying to work out why that is, what is the difference between the 'old school' stuff and this new wave of acts.

Could it simply be down to the overt sexual imagery and implicit 'negging' of all women that is evident in the Drag Race cohort?

I feel the same about this and I think it's because Paul O'Grady etc were playing fairly rounded characters who happened to be women rather than just dressing up in a pretty insulting, oversexualised generic "woman" costume. I quite liked Cissie and Ada and Lily Savage as characters, they were characters who felt like affectionate parodies of women from particular generations and backgrounds - of their time but without the misogyny and nastiness of Drag Race etc. Or this might be rose tinted glasses at work...I'm tempted to watch some Lily Savage now and see if this theory stands up.