What are your views on drag?

[Ladyday1995]

I never really started thinking about this until the other day. But honestly I personally can't stand it. It's so completely insulting to women, it's an ugly caricature based on strange men's ill informed ideas about femininity. Everything about it is so gross, the cattiness, bizarre sexual overtones, the disgusting makeup and clothing. I just cant understand things like "drag queen story time". They've done that at my local museum much to my horror.

@MargaritaPie

What do you think of pantomines? A lot of panto performances have a man dressed as a woman. Should this be done away with?

I think with anything that is a cultural tradition, the people taking part in it don't mean any harm but that doesn't mean it can't be outdated.

I hadn't attended a pantomime for years and then my experience of pantomime was the Cbeebies ones because I have young kids and I don't recall that being problematic, maybe just a bit silly.

Then last year because of Covid, a professional theatre was broadcasting their pantomime and I watched it with the kids and felt extremely uncomfortable at the sexualised stereotypes and jokes (usually coming from the pantomime dame) aimed over the heads of kids. It felt dirty like it was grooming.

I appreciate the performer was just playing the role written and bawdy humour is part of British tradition but it didn't feel appropriate at all and I think it is outdated. There's lots of things that society thought was okay in the past and doesn't now.

I don't think an actor playing an opposite sex part is necessarily the problem (as long as it goes both ways and isn't denying women the opportunity to have roles) but when it is a grotesque sexualised caricature...

I grew up in a seaside town that only stopped blacking up for their Black and White Minstrel show in 2005. People were upset about that because the people taking part and buying the tickets just meant it in harmless fun and didn't think of themselves as doing anything racist.

Hate it! I agree with you OP 100%. It's beyond vile; misogynistic and insulting to women.

I think there’s an argument that it subverts gender norms and stereotypes through exaggeration and pushing boundaries in a way which is in line with feminist thinking.

But I do find some drag misogynistic and offensive - I think there’s a point at which it stop being primarily around an exaggeration of the performative aspects of feminine presentation (hair, make up, clothes) and starts becoming a parody of women themselves.

It’s a bit of a blurry line but for example I started watching Drag Race and turned off within a few minutes when one of the contestants put their hand between their legs then sniffed it (suggesting they were a woman trying to see if their vulva was smelly). Sorry, that offended me.

I think the difference with pantomime dames is that
*they are played by (very) male actors who harbour no desire to be female
*the dames aren't the actors' alter egos - they don't talk about their "drag" selves as "she" in the third person
*the actors playing the dame are acting they aren't becoming the character they are playing
*the joke about the way they are dressed, the false boobs etc is on the actor, not on women
*the actors have their own, successful career outside of playing the dame. It isn't their whole raison d'être

@MrsFin Q: So why don't the drag "comedians" just do comedy, without the drag?
A: Because they aren't actually funny

Some have though. Paul O'Grady achieved fame with the character of Lily Savage, then retired her to focus on having a career as himself which he succeeded at. Drag doesn't have to be offensive. A decent comedian/performer can utilise drag inoffensively. (I can't honestly remember Lily Savage enough to say whether 'she' was offensive or not.

What is disturbing is that there is a lot of increasingly offensive, clearly misogynistic drag. While at the same time, the tradition of women in drag as men has all but disappeared.

@TracyBeakerSoYeah

What about female (as in biologically female from birth & woman is her gender - basically most of us who post) drag queens? There is a female/woman drag Queen on the latest Drag Race UK

Lenny Henry used to be in the B&W minstrel show.

Paul O'Grady achieved fame with the character of Lily Savage, then retired her to focus on having a career as himself which he succeeded at.

And he is much funnier and nicer as himself.

Can't stand Mrs Brown's Boys, but it's incredibly popular with the British public so they don't seem to see the problem.

I share your views, OP. Why is all the slang based around women's genitals? I learned another in the other day: "Serving C.U.N.T"

Just yuck and disrespectful to women, and the makeup is horrible too.

Men can be beautiful if they want to be.
I don't like beauty pageants or fashion shows, but that's personal taste. If men want to dress up in weird kind of overdone glamour go for it.

If men need fake boobs and sexist jokes to dress up though, then there's misogyny involved and I find it offensive. And misandry too because men are not being allowed to dress up as men. It's saying yes I can wear absurd makeup and act flirty but only if I call myself a woman because those are things only women do. While simultaneously personally demonstrating that men do.

Yes including pantomime dames. The kids are laughing at man dressed as woman, which perhaps isn't something we should encourage laughing at these days? The adults are laughing at man dressed as woman spouting a load of double entendres that hopefully are passing the kids by and we won't be called on to explain. Why not have a man dressing as a man acting sex obsessed? I suggest it would be seen as crass and inappropriate. It's no less inappropriate when sicced on womanhood.

@jellyfrizz
Lenny Henry used to be in the B&W minstrel show

Have you read what he has said about it since? He has talked about his regret and the amount of therapy he has had.
"Sir Lenny Henry is respected as one of Britain’s finest comedic talents after decades in the entertainment industry. But during a series of heartbreaking confessions while talking to Louis Theroux on his BBC podcast ‘Grounded with’, the TV star admitted he struggled with his past. At the beginning of his career, he was encouraged to join ‘The Black and White Minstrel Show’ where he performed as an impressionist in the Seventies. He admitted that it took years of therapy and reflection to forgive himself for being a part of the performance group that featured men who donned ‘blackface’ for performances"
www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1294536/lenny-henry-news-bbc-black-lives-matter-white-minstrel-show-comedy-confession-star-bbc-spt

It will be interesting to see how drag and drag performers are viewed in time.

I think if it’s socially unacceptable to black face it should be equally unacceptable to women face.

I really enjoy some of it, other stuff like Mrs. Brown's Boys is shite. Never been to a drag show where "fishy" was used.

[quote ChazsBrilliantAttitude]@jellyfrizz
Lenny Henry used to be in the B&W minstrel show

Have you read what he has said about it since? He has talked about his regret and the amount of therapy he has had.
"Sir Lenny Henry is respected as one of Britain’s finest comedic talents after decades in the entertainment industry. But during a series of heartbreaking confessions while talking to Louis Theroux on his BBC podcast ‘Grounded with’, the TV star admitted he struggled with his past. At the beginning of his career, he was encouraged to join ‘The Black and White Minstrel Show’ where he performed as an impressionist in the Seventies. He admitted that it took years of therapy and reflection to forgive himself for being a part of the performance group that featured men who donned ‘blackface’ for performances"
www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1294536/lenny-henry-news-bbc-black-lives-matter-white-minstrel-show-comedy-confession-star-bbc-spt

It will be interesting to see how drag and drag performers are viewed in time.[/quote]
Yes, I have. I mentioned him in response to the post which seemed to suggest that drag was ok because there was a woman in one of the seasons of Drag Race. It’s not ok in the same way as the B&W minstrel show wasn’t ok just because a black person took part.

I hate it. To be perfectly honest it always gave me the heebie jeebies a bit, long before I really realised how misogynist it is. The pantomime dame look is bad enough, but the ott, arch, catty schtick takes it to a whole other level of unpleasant imo.

A major problem I have with it is that the BBC have targeted Drag Race to young people. So the language had crept into my Dds secondary school boys call the girls ‘bitch’ ‘fishy’ etc and it bizarrely increases gender stereotypes. I also watched one problem where a contestant obviously had poor mental health and it seemed a miracle cure to dress up as a drag Queen. The quick fix is not what children need. Also when children follow the drag queens on social media, it leads them to a lot more sexualised stuff and links and contact to disturbed individuals.

I love drag and love drag race! Ive never felt offended by it!

The performers aren’t always trying to look female though.

Jellyfrizz
Completely agree

I can accept drag /cross dressing as a valid part of a plot or story where a male character is pretending to be female not to mock women but as plot point (similarly with female characters pretending to be male e.g. Twelfth Night).

However, the over the top stereotyped characterisation of women in drag with the deeply misogynistic overtones that some of it has is very different. It is difficult to see what purpose it has that isn't negative or mocking.

@tickledtiger

The performers aren’t always trying to look female though.

But a "he" dressed up becomes a "she". An adult man becomes "girl" because he's being pouty and flirty with monster glittery eyelashes. Can't you see the offensiveness to actual girls in that?

This has made me think;

I find the current wave of Drag, coming from and influenced by shows like Drag Race, pretty distasteful. I feel a wave of cruel misogyny underpins it and much of the language coming from it is offensive to me.

However I remember Lily Savage back when Paul O'Grady was very successful with his act and I didn't feel the same at that point. People here have mentioned Mrs Brown and I guess there's acts like Dame Edna and Hinge & Bracket, even Les Dawson with Cissie and Ada, and whilst they aren't particularly my first choice of comedy entertainment I don't get the same visceral feelings about them.

I'm trying to work out why that is, what is the difference between the 'old school' stuff and this new wave of acts.

Could it simply be down to the overt sexual imagery and implicit 'negging' of all women that is evident in the Drag Race cohort?

@Fluffymule

This has made me think;

I find the current wave of Drag, coming from and influenced by shows like Drag Race, pretty distasteful. I feel a wave of cruel misogyny underpins it and much of the language coming from it is offensive to me.

However I remember Lily Savage back when Paul O'Grady was very successful with his act and I didn't feel the same at that point. People here have mentioned Mrs Brown and I guess there's acts like Dame Edna and Hinge & Bracket, even Les Dawson with Cissie and Ada, and whilst they aren't particularly my first choice of comedy entertainment I don't get the same visceral feelings about them.

I'm trying to work out why that is, what is the difference between the 'old school' stuff and this new wave of acts.

Could it simply be down to the overt sexual imagery and implicit 'negging' of all women that is evident in the Drag Race cohort?

I think it’s about whether the character is well rounded and happens to be female or just a load of outrageous stereotypes.

The argument for drag is that it is mocking/questioning gender, but if that's the case then why are the drag queens always referred to as she/her

I absolutely hate drag.