Hung out to dry in Ireland

[Udouhun]

I just feel like self ID was introduced with zero thought or consultation. So now we're all supposed to sit here and pretend that biological sex doesn't exist? I'm fed up with it and I'm fed up with men encroaching on my space. I really admire the fight back in the UK.

I think anyone can send views. There's an email address on the link. I didn't come across a template email, threw a few of my own words together.

I have emailed TDs multiple times and only ever got one response from an assistant who said they would bring it to their attention.

Sorry it's section 20(b). Excuse the typo

@NowYouListenToMeFella
Sorry I am seeing 30b as direct provision page 73 of report?

Section 12 of the Gender Recognition Act already allows a GRS for 16+
(I suspect may have been used with BK)

@puckingfixies

I'm currently in Ireland, just tried to watch Rose of Dawn's video and it says: Video unavailable - This content is not available in this country domain due to a court order.

It's just the sort of censorship you expect in China.

Seen your typo now

16(B)👀 👀

Ireland has a woeful record at hearing the voices of women. Despite the 'advances' in recent times, this continues.

When the church crimes were at their height, despite the overwhelming majority if victims being female, male victims were given a higher percentage of newspaper space, the financial impact of womens lives was assessed as lower than that of the effect on the lives of men, successive governments have failed to investigate the crimes against women and have delayed investigations until the women affected are dead, records have been sealed to prevent mothers tracing their children and even when the issue of abortion was being debated, male politicians were insisting that the legislation needed to provide for abortions for pregnant people rather than use the word women.

Women are not believed or listened to when they report sex crimes.. I know the rugby rape case was on Northern Ireland but it is reflective of the ongoing mysogny in Ireland.

I was recently in a hospital in Ireland and a 'faces of Limerick' photo exhibition produced in 2021 had 3 women among 50 portraits.

Ireland has moved on and moved away from the control of the church but women still do not have a voice.

20(b) Ok what risk is involved in filling out an application form to get a government document which is not required to be produced except to the government?

GRA 18. (4) The person to whom the gender recognition certificate is issued shall not be required to produce it as proof of gender or identity for any purpose save as required by law.

GRA 18. (5) The person to whom the gender recognition certificate is issued may produce it to provide proof of gender or identity, if he or she so chooses.

GRA 18. (6) The issue of a gender recognition certificate shall not affect the rights or liabilities of a person or consequences of an action by the person in their original gender prior to the date of issue of the certificate.

GRA 23.(1) Where (apart from this subsection) a relevant gender-specific sexual offence could be committed or attempted only if the gender of the person to whom a gender recognition certificate is issued were not the preferred gender, the fact that the person’s gender has become the preferred gender does not prevent the sexual offence being committed or attempted.

With zero information about medical pathways/provision for the T. Even when they need GP and endocrinologist or psychiatrist in the Court process.

The 20 (a) provision of health care uses "intersex" (and not medically F/M) presumably to fit in to the LGBTI+ Crumlin use DSD

Done.

I said how other countries were pausing to reassess the best way to support gnc youth, and raised the safeguarding issues.

I may also have made a snide remark wondering which current TD is young enough and ambitious enough to be standing in front of the cameras in 20 years time dusting off the old Lessons Will Be Learned speech.

Done.

Hopefully the objections will be noted

SolasAnla the issue for me is that once the 16 to 17 year old can change their gender (without input from courts or parents) they can apply to change their birth certificate. I'd be concerned about the impact of that on single sex spaces in schools and other youth activities.

www.ranzcp.org/news-policy/policy-and-advocacy/position-statements/gender-dysphoria
For anyone commenting or making submissions- this August 2021 statement from Australia/ New Zealand Psychiatrists might be helpful back- up.
e.g. "Gender Dysphoria is an emerging field of research and, at present, there is a paucity of evidence. Better evidence in relation to outcomes, especially for children and adolescents is required."

@NowYouListenToMeFella

SolasAnla the issue for me is that once the 16 to 17 year old can change their gender (without input from courts or parents) they can apply to change their birth certificate. I'd be concerned about the impact of that on single sex spaces in schools and other youth activities.

I'd also be concerned that when they change their mind (ie realise that confusion about identity and sexuality are normal parts of being a teen) they have created a much more complex and difficult situation to step back from. Even at a psychological level, it is harder to step back from a decision when you have made it official and announced it to the world in this way.

It is batshit that children of this age would be allowed to do this. I've been 16 and I've two children already past that age. Who in their right minds thinks this is a sensible thing to allow. I despair.

3timeslucky

Exactly. We don't allow children of 16to do lots of things - drink, smoke, get married, drive etc. Because we realise that they do not have the life experience or common sense to understand the risks and the long term ramifications of such.

Why, WHY is gender the one thing that seems to skirt around all of these safeguarding boundaries? Why are those in power so deliberately blind to the potential damage of this? Have they thrown away their common sense?

Totally agree with you 3times.

I'd also be concerned that when they change their mind (ie realise that confusion about identity and sexuality are normal parts of being a teen) they have created a much more complex and difficult situation to step back from. Even at a psychological level, it is harder to step back from a decision when you have made it official and announced it to the world in this way.

This is why "social transition" isn't the neutral, harmless thing it is painted as. Especially in very young children. Relating to your whole family as a new person, as a son instead of a daughter, brother instead of sister, it's a huge leap psychologically.

Women who change their surname after marriage (ie most married women) feel a weird (sometimes very happy, don't get me wrong) disconnect between themselves and their new name, and we're talking about adults conforming to something that has been a societal expectation for centuries. For a child to become someone else takes a lot of psychological effort, and going back on that takes a lot of bravery.

Episode 40 of the Gender: A Wider Lens podcast talks about how social transition is a powerful therapeutic intervention and why it should be considered as such. Worth a listen (every episode is worth a listen).

Thanks for the podcast info. I have just had an acknowledgement of my email.

@NowYouListenToMeFella bare with me long post ahead

Irish Girl Guides already do the TGAG / TWAW so its mixed sex by stealth.
"Other" girls must accept TGAG as GG Belief. Can anyone imagine Irish Scout leaders doing that? Never because they would be shredded by everyone aware of the abusers who joined and it undermines child safeguarding.
If the child is a GRC holder is it lawful or unlawful gender discrimination to implement sex segrated as a safeguarding tool.

Schools are a given as battle ground for this. In Ireland its 1/3 single sex and mainly (90%?) RC. It's social engineering using children as a weapon.

From admissions to what is taught.
E.g. Blackrock College (BrC) www.blackrockcollege.com/our-school/admissions
*Male single sex educator.
*Roman Catholic ethos

• Rugby focused Ethos RC so bio-sex is binary, sexualiy is chastity or marriage + then sex/children. Admission is clear RC or support or RC ethos and will reject a boy who undermines the ethos.

Birth certs (& baptismal records)
S.15a No mention of self ID as a stakeholder yet Government want to lower the age.

16yo female can change their birth cert. So for an ex-gestating female guardianship is a right.
An unmarried male has to establish guardianship. How can he do that when the required other gestating person does not exist?
How will that translate when the first legal gestating male wants to register the birth can 2 unmarried males register a birth?
Is that covered in any of the new reproduction legislation eg S16a?
Sex based health care pregnancy abortion are a women only laws

A 16yo can critically assess the reproduction issues involved pop up to BrC with a new birth cert (GRC boy) and a RC baptismal cert and seek admission.

Education /sex ed
S.17 the Government policy is teach your own child per the Constitution yet Schools with ethos eg BrC must provide alternatives

S.28c Government don't want to provide State Schools so the Churches and Voluntary sector run private schools, with a "personalised" ethos, which receive public tax funds.
Social engineering child by child.

28b schools having to accept all applicants if under-subscribed how would that work with BrC one of the top (rugby) schools and a GRC boy

Oversubscribed schools are because the DofEd is not responsible for the securing the supply of school places.

28e gender stereotypes v gender identity v sexual orientation how should a BRC teacher deal with any of the topics with a GRC boy when the child is living in the gender male
GRA18. (1)
Preferred male gender = sex is man, (GRC boy)
Preferred female gender = sex is woman (GRC girl)

Look at the housing sections
A homeless family are allocated housing by need
A male and a female children post puberty are assessed by need so allocated single sex sleeping accommodation.
If the 2 children as a family are dependant on State support recognising a childs GRC conflicts with the other childs needs.

In the UK sex and transition will be separate assessment points.
In Ireland sex will be ignored in favour of living in a gender.

[quote SolasAnla]@NowYouListenToMeFella bare with me long post ahead

Irish Girl Guides already do the TGAG / TWAW so its mixed sex by stealth.
"Other" girls must accept TGAG as GG Belief. Can anyone imagine Irish Scout leaders doing that? Never because they would be shredded by everyone aware of the abusers who joined and it undermines child safeguarding.
If the child is a GRC holder is it lawful or unlawful gender discrimination to implement sex segrated as a safeguarding tool.

Schools are a given as battle ground for this. In Ireland its 1/3 single sex and mainly (90%?) RC. It's social engineering using children as a weapon.

From admissions to what is taught.
E.g. Blackrock College (BrC) www.blackrockcollege.com/our-school/admissions
*Male single sex educator.
*Roman Catholic ethos

• Rugby focused Ethos RC so bio-sex is binary, sexualiy is chastity or marriage + then sex/children. Admission is clear RC or support or RC ethos and will reject a boy who undermines the ethos.

Birth certs (& baptismal records)
S.15a No mention of self ID as a stakeholder yet Government want to lower the age.

16yo female can change their birth cert. So for an ex-gestating female guardianship is a right.
An unmarried male has to establish guardianship. How can he do that when the required other gestating person does not exist?
How will that translate when the first legal gestating male wants to register the birth can 2 unmarried males register a birth?
Is that covered in any of the new reproduction legislation eg S16a?
Sex based health care pregnancy abortion are a women only laws

A 16yo can critically assess the reproduction issues involved pop up to BrC with a new birth cert (GRC boy) and a RC baptismal cert and seek admission.

Education /sex ed
S.17 the Government policy is teach your own child per the Constitution yet Schools with ethos eg BrC must provide alternatives

S.28c Government don't want to provide State Schools so the Churches and Voluntary sector run private schools, with a "personalised" ethos, which receive public tax funds.
Social engineering child by child.

28b schools having to accept all applicants if under-subscribed how would that work with BrC one of the top (rugby) schools and a GRC boy

Oversubscribed schools are because the DofEd is not responsible for the securing the supply of school places.

28e gender stereotypes v gender identity v sexual orientation how should a BRC teacher deal with any of the topics with a GRC boy when the child is living in the gender male
GRA18. (1)
Preferred male gender = sex is man, (GRC boy)
Preferred female gender = sex is woman (GRC girl)

Look at the housing sections
A homeless family are allocated housing by need
A male and a female children post puberty are assessed by need so allocated single sex sleeping accommodation.
If the 2 children as a family are dependant on State support recognising a childs GRC conflicts with the other childs needs.

In the UK sex and transition will be separate assessment points.
In Ireland sex will be ignored in favour of living in a gender.[/quote]
Oops

Admission is clear RC or support or of RC ethos and will reject a boy who undermines the ethos.

Ex-gestation female = biological mother registering birth.

SolasAnla you are far more knowledgeable than I am. All the points raised make me wonder if there has been any thinking at all about the implications surrounding this. As you say how is school admission going to work.

Thanks NowYouListenToMeFella but I am not more knowledgeable just very slowly making my way through the consequences of allowing a male to become a legal female and a female to become a legal male. (I like to try drill down to find crossover links)

So read the act to realisation that the elected politicians voted and passed gender roles for women and men. In 2015!!!

This was while the abortion debate was raging, mother and baby homes Inquiry was launched.

At least in the UK there is the recognition of biology and an additional recognition for gender which allows RL compromise.
Ireland has zero wiggle room.

The schools act was passed to force the private church schools (for the RC faith) to accept students who would not be admitted to other faith schools and could not find places in local multi-denomination schools.

The elected politicians would have to be stupid not to realise that this would result in individual student beliefs ending up conflicting with the school ethos.

The policy makers are in the school space producing reports re LGB & T for the government individual, politicians champion the policy.

All the above are proof of how little thought has been given to the practical ramifications of this "being kind" mindset (and legislation) which is uniquely focused on the "benefits" of self-ID to a sub-set of trans identifying people to the exclusion of any thought of the damage to gender-non-conforming children, in fact all children, women and gay people whose sexuality is being re-defined also.

The lack of distinction between sex and gender is a huge problem here.

Anyone listening to the most recent Countess webinar will have heard the Principal of an all girls school talking about admissions policies. She said they have girls "identifying" as boys currently, but as a girls school that makes very little difference aside from using their new chosen names. But she was pretty clear that admitting boys who "identify" as girls would not be a runner. No question but there will be legal challenges from schools and parents. It wasn't clear to me if there was any legal basis to her statement. It was clear she was well-intentioned but not necessarily well-informed (particularly in relation to the implications of socially transitioning these girls, and possibly putting pressure on the parents when they were not ok with it). In mixed sex schools students and parents are already finding themselves at the sharp end of the stick when it comes to facilities, sports, accommodation.

The lazy-ass thinking of our politicians really pisses me off.

Firstly the Irish legislation allows anyone to change their legal sex and legal name. The Minister has no right to make inquires as to the character or criminal/civil history of the applicant. Plus unless the Minister of the day objects I think it could be used multiple times.

If new name & new birth cert = new passport number what could go wrong?
One of the banks is in trouble via a complaint as each individual account number has a sex marker number, (who knew that for the pub quiz)?

On schools, there will be legal challenges but constitutional protections are one reason why the government don't want to build and manage secular schools.
Article 6.1.iii / 6.2 single sex groups (golf club case)
Article 41 family
Article 42 education
Article 44 religion
The DofEd is not likely to take a case but the dep in charge of equality could or the guardian/parent could.

RC as the biggest provider are out of building new school infrastructure because they don't have the people to manage it. Dito most other religions groups.
Plus why provide places to students /parents who will actively undermine the schools goals and ethos.
If a parent needs a new school it's up to them to source a location and organise funding.

How may urban areas have built a mass of housing for families but had not additional school provision. The local planning office have no obligation to tell the the Dof Ed about the 100 new starter home🤷🏼‍♀️

Faith schools had an application policy of which faith was number one. Locals had the children on the school list since birth. Local non-believers had a faith ceremonies to get the paperwork to get in ahead of non-local believers.
Good luck if you moved to a house to a high demand area. The 2018 act force some schools to provide places by bumping out other applicants.

To get a child placed or not in the local school has a knock on impact to parents who work school hours.

Every year DofEd order schools to accommodate children without places. What happens if an employee of Tusla as legal guardian advisor of a male with a clinical diagnosis decided that the best school is that local girls school.
The school either go against it's principles and comply or find the resources to obtain a ruling on if the demand is constitutional or not.
So Faith school & Adults against a poor child who just wants to go to school.

It's not just lazy.
Some of it's social engineering. (Irish) feminists who are all TWAW think that people replacing woman is good but ignore the default is man. The 2021 "Bleeder" bill is in essence ignoring women to rank men higher up in the group people. Male bodies don't shed their uterus wall. One of the consequences of living in the gender man is not being entitled to use the resources the State allocates to the gender woman. Yet we must remove women from the law so that one of the consequences of living as a man is resolved by the [TW: intentional hyperbole ] elimination of women.