Women died for my right to vote, but......

[Bellaisoneluckywoman]

.... who in God's name is a sane gender critical person supposed to vote for if they can't bring themselves to vote Tory?

Imagine said member of the electorate also cared a lot about the environment and loathed Brexit with every bone in her sane GC body. Who could she vote for? Asking for a friend....

Left-wing/Liberal Jewish people faced this in the last election. almost no-one now agonising about this gave a damn about us. It's really upsetting

@Tanith

So some posters would vote for Christopher Chope (Conservative), but not Rosie Duffield (Labour)?

That’s really going to help, isn’t it?

I asked all my candidates their position on this issue. Only the conservative replied so I voted for him.

If the labour candidate had supported women being defined by their sex would have voted for them. But they (and the greens and lib dems) were too cowardly even to reply.

@BudgeSquare

Left-wing/Liberal Jewish people faced this in the last election. almost no-one now agonising about this gave a damn about us. It's really upsetting

I think a lot of people voting at the election when JC was leader did not vote for them due to the antisemitism running rife under his leadership.

@bothjetplanes It would be nice to think so, but my personal experience as a Jew in the thick of it (ex Labour member/campaigner etc.) was that it wasn't a deal-breaker for a lot of people, including some of my own (now ex) friends

It was and is very hurtful and frightening to see how many people are seeing labour's current shittiness re gender as a line in the sand, but it's clear that they were OK with them up to this point.

@BudgeSquare

Left-wing/Liberal Jewish people faced this in the last election. almost no-one now agonising about this gave a damn about us. It's really upsetting

??

This is the feminist board. Deals exclusively with issues that impact 51% of us who are women. Not every other groups issues.

@BloodinGutters

That is exactly my point. You see racism against one particular group as someone else's problem. Not something that needs to concern you in the slightest. Not a dealbreaker.

I'm sure it isn't too much of a stretch to see how that attitude might not make Jewish people feel very secure in our future here.

[quote BudgeSquare]@bothjetplanes It would be nice to think so, but my personal experience as a Jew in the thick of it (ex Labour member/campaigner etc.) was that it wasn't a deal-breaker for a lot of people, including some of my own (now ex) friends

It was and is very hurtful and frightening to see how many people are seeing labour's current shittiness re gender as a line in the sand, but it's clear that they were OK with them up to this point.

[/quote]
There were a lot of deal breakers for me, and many others as the election showed, about voting Labour under JC, and the anti-semitism was one of them. It was disgraceful. I can understand how hurtful it must have been.

'No X if you can't respect my sex'.

I really like this.

@bothjetplanes thank you so much for saying that.

I and every other Jewish person i know lost lifelong friendships over that.

You can see even on this thread how willing some people are to declare that they openly don't consider antisemitism a problem because it doesn't personally affect them.

[quote BudgeSquare]@BloodinGutters

That is exactly my point. You see racism against one particular group as someone else's problem. Not something that needs to concern you in the slightest. Not a dealbreaker.

I'm sure it isn't too much of a stretch to see how that attitude might not make Jewish people feel very secure in our future here.[/quote]
I didn’t say I see it as someone else’s problem. I said this is the feminist board, exclusively for women’s issues.

Feminism only has to centre women and issues that impact us because of our sex. When it centres any other groups issues it swiftly turns to being all about men’s voices again. Female socialisation is already all about women putting ourselves and our own issues last always, we need to work against that here to prioritise women’s issues that impact us because of our biological sex.

That’s not to say many of us wouldn’t support other issues, but this board isn’t the place for it.

I have been spoiling my ballot for a very long time, over other issues prior to self id, so I’ve never supported Labours position that you object to. But this isn’t the board for centring that discussing, anymore than a communist group would be expected to be inclusive of capitalist issues.

[quote BudgeSquare]@bothjetplanes thank you so much for saying that.

I and every other Jewish person i know lost lifelong friendships over that.

You can see even on this thread how willing some people are to declare that they openly don't consider antisemitism a problem because it doesn't personally affect them.[/quote]
Now that’s either intentionally manipulative or poor reading comprehension. Either way appealing to female socialisation to think of every other group before my needs as a women and my daughters needs won’t work on a feminist board.

I didn’t vote labour in the last general election because of the anti semitism and the misogyny (but predominantly the anti semitism because I still hadn’t totally realised the scope of the gender issue at that time). I’ve been horrified by a lot of the left-leaning people I know in their reaction to the anti semitism, and to an extent I think this is linked to the failure to give a damn about the gender ID issue. There’s a trend of thought of ‘who’s the most oppressed group, they’re the ones I’ll support’ even to extreme and cruel degrees. So no sympathy for Jews, because Palestine; no engagement over cologne or grooming gangs because this would involve siding against Muslims in this simplistic world view; and no support for women now because trans people are the ‘most oppressed’. No attempt to see context or nuance. All or nothing. It worries me, and is alienating me from a lot of the left.

Would still vote sdp if they stood in my constituency.

My recollection was that the gender issue was on the radar in the last election. I certainly remember the anti-semitism issue and it troubled me very much.

I'm also interested to know whether other interest/identity groups will be equally as keen to stand up for women as well as their own issues and how much they will be chastised if they do not.

@BudgeSquare

Left-wing/Liberal Jewish people faced this in the last election. almost no-one now agonising about this gave a damn about us. It's really upsetting

I am an atheist I despise all religions that subjugate women equality. I believe in sex not gender. It is already hard enough choosing which political party to vote for without factoring in an issue which barely features in the region of the Wales where I live (as there is no Jewish community of any significant number here), and in which I do not believe (religion in general not specifically Judaism).

equally not equality

@BloodinGutters
Now that’s either intentionally manipulative or poor reading comprehension. Either way appealing to female socialisation to think of every other group before my needs as a women and my daughters needs won’t work on a feminist board.

I am a feminist and a mother. I'm not doing any of that. I am saying that it is very upsetting to see many, many people saying that now they can't vote Labour, but they were fine with doing so when it was "only" Jews that were being thrown under the bus.

There are posts after yours in this thread that state explicitly that they don't give a shit about racism against Jews or what happens to Jewish people.

@Veeta

I didn’t vote labour in the last general election because of the anti semitism and the misogyny (but predominantly the anti semitism because I still hadn’t totally realised the scope of the gender issue at that time). I’ve been horrified by a lot of the left-leaning people I know in their reaction to the anti semitism, and to an extent I think this is linked to the failure to give a damn about the gender ID issue. There’s a trend of thought of ‘who’s the most oppressed group, they’re the ones I’ll support’ even to extreme and cruel degrees. So no sympathy for Jews, because Palestine; no engagement over cologne or grooming gangs because this would involve siding against Muslims in this simplistic world view; and no support for women now because trans people are the ‘most oppressed’. No attempt to see context or nuance. All or nothing. It worries me, and is alienating me from a lot of the left.

Would still vote sdp if they stood in my constituency.

Thank you so much @Veeta

And yes - you are right. The two issues are obviously linked, which is why it's not only upsetting and wrong for feminists not to give a shit about racism against Jews, but also really stupid and misguided (the exact same thing goes for those who stood up against antisemitism but not for women).

I take the point that anti semitism is not the point of the thread, but the argument of ‘it doesn’t affect me so why should I care’ is part of the reason we’re in the mess we’re in over gender. I’m hoping that decent men (who have a lot less skin in the game on this issue and who could easily say that self id doesn’t affect them so why should they care) will still make a principled stand on this.

[quote BudgeSquare]@BloodinGutters
Now that’s either intentionally manipulative or poor reading comprehension. Either way appealing to female socialisation to think of every other group before my needs as a women and my daughters needs won’t work on a feminist board.

I am a feminist and a mother. I'm not doing any of that. I am saying that it is very upsetting to see many, many people saying that now they can't vote Labour, but they were fine with doing so when it was "only" Jews that were being thrown under the bus.

There are posts after yours in this thread that state explicitly that they don't give a shit about racism against Jews or what happens to Jewish people.[/quote]
No they don’t.

I said repeatedly that this isn’t an issue for a feminist board. I never said I didn’t gaf about the issue, I said it isn’t the board for discussing it.

So either you aren’t comprehending what’s said or you are wilfully misrepresenting it.

@GingerCake2018 @Gingercake2018

I am an atheist I despise all religions that subjugate women equality. I believe in sex not gender. It is already hard enough choosing which political party to vote for without factoring in an issue which barely features in the region of the Wales where I live (as there is no Jewish community of any significant number here), and in which I do not believe (religion in general not specifically Judaism).

Is this a serious post?

You think that Hitler went around asking Jews if they believed in God or not? Or the people in London now, in 2021, targeting Jewish schools and businesses?

Do you understand anything at all about racism and antisemitism?

For what it's worth, I am also an atheist.

an issue which barely features in the region of the Wales where I live (as there is no Jewish community of any significant number here)

This is a genuinely chilling comment. Are you also equally fine with racism against Black and Asian people - presumably there aren't significant numbers of those people where you live either?

@BloodinGutters

There are posts after yours in this thread that state explicitly that they don't give a shit about racism against Jews or what happens to Jewish people.

No they don’t.

Yes, there are. Read the post by @Gingercake2018

@Veeta clearly gets it and has made the point very clearly as to the parallels and links between these issues, and why this should matter to people. It's sad and frightening that it doesn't.

@Veeta

I take the point that anti semitism is not the point of the thread, but the argument of ‘it doesn’t affect me so why should I care’ is part of the reason we’re in the mess we’re in over gender. I’m hoping that decent men (who have a lot less skin in the game on this issue and who could easily say that self id doesn’t affect them so why should they care) will still make a principled stand on this.

It chills me to my core when I see people like @Gingercake2018 literally saying "I don't know any Jews so why should I care?"

I don't personally know any Syrians but I still care that they are being displaced and murdered in huge numbers. I don't personally know any of the Mexican refugees being separated from their children and imprisoned. I don't personally know anyone who was tortured in Guantanamo Bay.

I still give a shit, and it's fucking awful that there are those who are so openly, unashamedly prepared to say otherwise.

[quote BudgeSquare]@BloodinGutters

There are posts after yours in this thread that state explicitly that they don't give a shit about racism against Jews or what happens to Jewish people.

No they don’t.

Yes, there are. Read the post by @Gingercake2018

@Veeta clearly gets it and has made the point very clearly as to the parallels and links between these issues, and why this should matter to people. It's sad and frightening that it doesn't.[/quote]
Ok, I apologise I misread, I thought you said my posts said that.

I still don’t think a feminist board is the place to address upset over other groups issues. This is just about women’s issues. Half of the reason we are in this bloody mess is the continual centring of men’s voices in feminism. And the continual reinforcement of female socialisation that tells us to be kind and put everyone else first, to think about how fighting for our rights impacts other groups.

I think it’s very very important to fight against that socialisation on a feminist board, to move away from the reinforcement of internalised misogyny that men have jumped on and used against us. You jumped on a thread about women’s lack of choice of candidates and made it all about your upset about a different groups issue.

That’s a discussion for another board.

It is already hard enough choosing which political party to vote for without factoring in an issue..and in which I do not believe (religion in general not specifically Judaism)

It would never occur to me that I have to believe in someone's religion to object to discrimination and harassment against them, anymore than I would have to agree with someone's opinion to express their right express it.

The anti-semitism issue for me, like the gender issue, is one that shows the Labour party is no longer a party of social justice or equality. And I can't vote for that.

@budgesquare

I live in one of the poorest regions of Wales and therefore the UK, where Welsh is the first language for the majority of the population. So yes, realistically, I doubt very much if people choose which box to tick on the ballot paper based on the antisemitic in-house fighting within a political party.

This is your political key deciding factor and I totally understand and respect that, but it is not going to be the deciding factor for many other people.