What IS the answer?

[Youdonthavetobegood]

I'm firmly GC with my opinion now, and happy with that. But I have a few questions (hopefully not incendiary but who knows these days) but genuine ones that im not really sure the answer to.

When I've had (heated) debates with friends taking the opposite stance, they often come up with the counter argument to keeping female only spaces, as 'where are raped transwomen supposed to go? Where are transwomen prisoners supposed to go? where are they supposed to go if they are domestically abused?'

And I'm really not sure of the answer. Partly I kind of want to say, well it depends how far on their transitioning they are? Like, do they have a penis still? Can they still rape.women? But that somehow feels a bit crass, particularly in the refuge scenario.

So what is the answer to this kind of pushback? A third space? If so, would there be funding for this? It's not as though I don't have compassion for transwomen who have been raped or beaten, so I'm genuinely interested as to the best solution to this, that doesn't further endanger women, or transwomen (I guess in the case of them being in a male prison and fearing for their safety because they are trans.)

What's the compassionate answer?

All the charities esp with the level of corporate support etc could have been setting up things to help trans people.

Instead they've been working day and night to get laws changed, take our words, replace them with things that mean you with a cunt. And tell us we have no choice but to have any male who wants to in with us.

Loads of stats have been changed to the he disadvantage of women and trans people.

Any suggestion of 3rd space is met with refusal as outing/ invalidating.

It's we say yay to no more single sex and no other option allowed.

@chiller

This question and the responses to it are horrific, and what's really chilling is that I don't think any of you understand or care that these exact questions and conversations, and your "solutions" - segregationism - let them be raped in jail - deny them any form of public life - their problem not ours - are fundamentally dehumanising, and have been had throughout history about a lot of minorities. I'm pretty sure you can think of some of those minorities and the "solutions" - some degrading, some far worse than that, all dangerous to life and health - that those minorities had to live and die with.

Insert any other minority into this discussion and you will realise that this conversation would be easily transposed onto any white supremacist or far right website.

"A third space"? My mother was greeted with the signs when she came to this country: "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs." And she would recognise your conversation.

Take a step back from yourselves. What you have become is not good.

Ok let's unpick this.

Your argument rests in the premise that TW are an oppressed minority group.

They are not.

Firstly, as men, they represent a significant proportion of the population.

As for oppressed, in the U.K. as evidenced by govt statistics on murder, assault, hate crime they are as a percentage of the population less likely to be victims than many, many other cohorts.

Thirdly, you are drawing a false equivalence when discussing the abhorrent historical (and sadly present) attitudes to minority groups.

Of all the protected characteristics, there is no other that expects other people to change their sense of scientific reality to accommodate another persons inner self belief.

Freedom of expression re: religion (which is the closest wrt being a belief next to gender ideology) does not grant you the right to drag someone to your place or worship, to pray, to make them wear certain clothing or essentially believe what you believe.

Third spaces are not about discrimination or "othering".

It's a practical option that provides spaces that ensure everyone can have dignity and sex based privacy.

It's not popular with the Trans lobby simply because the mantra demands that we accept without exception. We are expected to validate someone else's beliefs by denying our own reality and reason. To reiterate, there is no other precedent for this.

You cannot identify out of your sex any more than you can identify out of your ethnic heritage. If you could, the signs your mother saw would have been irrelevant.

She could, with a simple sentence have bypassed any bigotry/racism by creating an identity that magically freed her from any oppression.

"A third space"? My mother was greeted with the signs when she came to this country: "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs." And she would recognise your conversation.

What utter rubbish. I'm the child of non white immigrants who came to the UK in the 50s, and find the comparison of their experience (and my own for that matter growing up in the 70s) with the so called plight of modern day trans women utterly offensive. My parents would laugh in your face for putting them in the same basket as trans prisoners who have committed some of the most heinous crimes men can commit. I'm sick of people like you using us as a human shield or stick to beat white women with, which is what you are doing here. You know full well that men is women's single sex spaces stands up to no vigorous scrutiny, so you use other peoples' actual experiences, and appropriate them to manufacture imagined oppression of a group that is is in fact over-privileged, over-represented, hugely influential and well funded. Have you asked your mum whether she's like to spend time in a confined space, with no way out and no one to defend her, in vulnerable situations like showering, with a trans woman rapist?

@BashfulClam

I’m confused by these loos in a large chain. DH confirmed the male toilets had urinals and stalls so why is it women and unisex rather than just male or female loos. Again women have to budge up’

Indecent exposure 101 v money

We have different social contracts around the female and male urethra.

Women have a reasonable expectation not to encounter exposed genitalia in a woman's toilet.

Male expectation is that a urinal will be provided but exposing the urethra (penis) has specific social rules.

The chain don't want to spend the money required to remove the urinal and make the space a mixed sex space. But they do want the woke points for mixed sex provision.

and your "solutions" - segregationism - let them be raped in jail - deny them any form of public life

To add to my post below, where has anyone said this?

To be VERY clear I believe trans people have the rights as everyone else.

They deserve to be physically safe and to participate in society freely and without discrimination.

What I don't believe is that gender ideologists (and I make the distinction because not all trans people subscribe to this and many non trans people do) are correct/appropriate/fair when they demand rights that are in excess, or decimate those of others, especially those who are statistically more vulnerable.

@NoThankYouSaurus

"A third space"? My mother was greeted with the signs when she came to this country: "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs." And she would recognise your conversation.

What utter rubbish. I'm the child of non white immigrants who came to the UK in the 50s, and find the comparison of their experience (and my own for that matter growing up in the 70s) with the so called plight of modern day trans women utterly offensive. My parents would laugh in your face for putting them in the same basket as trans prisoners who have committed some of the most heinous crimes men can commit. I'm sick of people like you using us as a human shield or stick to beat white women with, which is what you are doing here. You know full well that men is women's single sex spaces stands up to no vigorous scrutiny, so you use other peoples' actual experiences, and appropriate them to manufacture imagined oppression of a group that is is in fact over-privileged, over-represented, hugely influential and well funded. Have you asked your mum whether she's like to spend time in a confined space, with no way out and no one to defend her, in vulnerable situations like showering, with a trans woman rapist?

👏👏👏👏

This question and the responses to it are horrific, and what's really chilling is that I don't think any of you understand or care that these exact questions and conversations, and your "solutions" - segregationism - let them be raped in jail - deny them any form of public life - their problem not ours - are fundamentally dehumanising, and have been had throughout history about a lot of minorities. I'm pretty sure you can think of some of those minorities and the "solutions" - some degrading, some far worse than that, all dangerous to life and health - that those minorities had to live and die with.

Segregationism....? Nobody is segregating anybody. Transwomen already have facilities they can use, they just don't want to use them.
Raped in jail...? Again nobody is advocating this, in fact we are encouraging all groups working with transwomen and other vulnerable
male groups to campaign to make their prisons safer. However, we don't accept that the only solution to this problem is to put another
more vulnerable group at risk.
Deny them any form of public life.? Who is denying them any form of public life ? Live as you want as long as it harms nobody else ,wear what you want, love whomever you
want and good luck to you but don't demand things that are not yours.

Dehumanised ? Given that less than 150 years ago in the UK, women were still the property of their male relations and still are in some parts of the world.
Less than thirty years ago imen could rape their wwives
W omen are not a minority but have nevertheless been degraded and dehumanised by the patriarchy for millennia.

It's the second wave feminists who sorted the problem out for women back in the 70s and now it seems we are being asked to sort it out for trans women as well even though we have been constantly under attack from them. They are active enough to sort this out for themselves. It's funny how #BeKind only applies to women, isn't it?

Excellent post @NoThankYouSaurus!

@chiller

This question and the responses to it are horrific, and what's really chilling is that I don't think any of you understand or care that these exact questions and conversations, and your "solutions" - segregationism - let them be raped in jail - deny them any form of public life - their problem not ours - are fundamentally dehumanising, and have been had throughout history about a lot of minorities. I'm pretty sure you can think of some of those minorities and the "solutions" - some degrading, some far worse than that, all dangerous to life and health - that those minorities had to live and die with.

Insert any other minority into this discussion and you will realise that this conversation would be easily transposed onto any white supremacist or far right website.

"A third space"? My mother was greeted with the signs when she came to this country: "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs." And she would recognise your conversation.

Take a step back from yourselves. What you have become is not good.

What's your views on women being raped in the female prison estate by transwomen who are convicted sex offenders? Because it is happening. There was a recent judicial review in which the MOJ admitted that it is happening.

These women being raped in prison (again actually, currently happening) is due to the effect of gender ideology and is essentially state sanctioned punative rape.

I find that chilling and horrific.

Many of us have suggested a third space as a compromise in order to protect transwomen and women. But that's just not enough for TRA's. Total capitulation is the only 'acceptable' solution.

I find your anti women views abhorrent so I'll take your TRA script 'step away from yourselves' (very reminiscent of the 'educate yourself' mantra) with an enormous pinch of salt.

@chiller

This question and the responses to it are horrific, and what's really chilling is that I don't think any of you understand or care that these exact questions and conversations, and your "solutions" - segregationism - let them be raped in jail - deny them any form of public life - their problem not ours - are fundamentally dehumanising, and have been had throughout history about a lot of minorities. I'm pretty sure you can think of some of those minorities and the "solutions" - some degrading, some far worse than that, all dangerous to life and health - that those minorities had to live and die with.

Insert any other minority into this discussion and you will realise that this conversation would be easily transposed onto any white supremacist or far right website.

"A third space"? My mother was greeted with the signs when she came to this country: "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs." And she would recognise your conversation.

Take a step back from yourselves. What you have become is not good.

Since when is "being male" a minority?

As for "let them be raped in jail" - why don't you seem to give single shiny shit for women who have already been raped in jail? And guess who did the raping? You are an absolute disgrace, chiller.

At first I think I also felt like I had to ‘provide’ some kind of thought into what trans women could use instead.

Which is weird, it’s not my issue. I’m a woman, and being one can be hard enough with our own issues.

So now I think:
A) It doesn’t matter as long as the solution doesn’t mean female spaces/identities are compromised
B) what is so wrong with using men’s spaces as a trans woman? I mean… really genuinely? So what if you have to to go past a man whilst you are going to a toilet. So what if you have to use a cubicle in a man’s swimming changing room? Or a men’s ward in a hospital? What exactly is going to happen? Nothing. Just a trans woman in a man’s ward, big deal really. I just don’t believe the hype that this is the most prominent issue of all time.

Oooh in a totally unsurprising development this thread is being screenshot and on twitter!

I only know cos OJ has retweeted.

Who thought a few women on one thread on one site on one corner of internet were so interesting :/

At least I thought I saw it there but can't see RT now.

The framing of the prison issue as not caring about rape generally is very interesting.

Rape is an appalling crime whether victim is man woman girl boy.

The perpetrators are overwhelmingly male.

Putting males in women's prisons and saying that anyone who says no is ok with rape for X group is pretty grim. Esp given the fact that women in prison have been attacked by males.

Seems women being sexually attacked is a small price to pay.

Meanwhile sex attacks in male prisons have a range of victims. But only one type of victim matters.

It's a massive reversal.

If that poster is still here, i have wondered for ages why the group that is seen as the most dangerous to trans people, is in the vast majority women who say this and that. Rather than male people. The group who commit the majority of violent crime, the overwhelming majority of sex offences. That as a group enforce a narrow definition of masculinity amongst themselves. And are the group that presents most risk by far to anyone seen as not a real man. And to women who don't play their role satisfactorily.

Tackle that and things get better for everyone.

Instead eg it's a handful of women being told they are red hot keen for men to rape as long as it's not them.

In what world. Are women whatever they say. The biggest threat to anything?

We don't control the govts, institutions. The wealthy businesses. Anything. Everyone knows no one listens to feminists. We've been hated/ laughed at for decades.

In what way can we possibly be extremely dangerous?

Still up on Twitter and funny as any paranoia conspiracy theory can be

What is it tweeting to proving a poor comprehension of written English.
I don't understand that.
Post up a block of text make up a story that it said X
Then project a full blown conspiracy theory on made up story.

With the obligatory self congratulation too.

Link? To the Twitter?

Not sure I should tbh! Don't want to stir things up.

Sorry.

Do they explain on the Twitter thread why males who don't like using men's spaces are women's problem to sort out?

Well no obv.

Something about celebrating GB news.
Third spaces being usual horseshit.
Seems to be some problem with the words compassion and solution.
Oh and thread is apparently fantasising about what should happen to TW who are raped.

So yeah. That's about it. Person doesn't seem to have many people commenting etc so not going to link and think would be best if others didn't either.

PP suggests their problem not ours is a hateful stance. When I read that I heard “Why isn’t mummy making it better?”

Women are not here to solve all the problems of the world.

"A third space"? My mother was greeted with the signs when she came to this country: "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs." And she would recognise your conversation.

If you think differences between races are comparable with differences between males and females, you are far, far more racist than those signs.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

Do they explain on the Twitter thread why males who don't like using men's spaces are women's problem to sort out?

That would never happen with performative outrage.

The objective of the post and the tweet was never about to the substance of why some males should be given access to female spaces. It was simply a Walter Mitty style demand for the "so stunning and so brave" response

I also fail to understand why third spaces are inherently problematic given the increase in numbers of people who are not comfortable identifying as male or female and the large numbers of people who say they are happy to use any toilet if the queue is short.

Posters here are suggesting third spaces.

A third space for transwomen in prison would be a separate wing for only transwomen. So who would be raping them? I would say no one. Unless any of these allies believe transwomen are a risk to other transwomen. I don’t believe that.

How on earth can allies say they are ok with transwomen in women’s changing rooms/toilets up to supporting unisex facilities but they are not ok with a third space open to trans people and non trans people alike? It would be exactly the same but women and men would also have a space if they do not want mixed sex facilities. This sounds like tokenistic support- would the likes of OJ et al not be happy to share a third space to support the people they champion? Apparently not.

Feminists on a feminism board have every right to say “this is not a feminist issue”. Not everything falls under feminism. Many of us would agree that the NHS needs more funding. But that is not a feminist issue and these boards are not the place for that discussion no matter how strongly we may agree. Likewise a campaign to stop the extinction of endangered animals or sustainable clothing or workers rights or an improvement in disability rights. Whilst there may be a feminist angle to any of those they are not exclusively feminist issues.

The feminist issue here is how can existing women’s rights be protected, how can women be safe and listened to. Whilst there may be a need for more discussion around refugees etc for transwomen, this is surely a conversation for ALL humans to be involved in. It is not a feminist issue.