What IS the answer?

[Youdonthavetobegood]

I'm firmly GC with my opinion now, and happy with that. But I have a few questions (hopefully not incendiary but who knows these days) but genuine ones that im not really sure the answer to.

When I've had (heated) debates with friends taking the opposite stance, they often come up with the counter argument to keeping female only spaces, as 'where are raped transwomen supposed to go? Where are transwomen prisoners supposed to go? where are they supposed to go if they are domestically abused?'

And I'm really not sure of the answer. Partly I kind of want to say, well it depends how far on their transitioning they are? Like, do they have a penis still? Can they still rape.women? But that somehow feels a bit crass, particularly in the refuge scenario.

So what is the answer to this kind of pushback? A third space? If so, would there be funding for this? It's not as though I don't have compassion for transwomen who have been raped or beaten, so I'm genuinely interested as to the best solution to this, that doesn't further endanger women, or transwomen (I guess in the case of them being in a male prison and fearing for their safety because they are trans.)

What's the compassionate answer?

Worth noting that eg in the row about one women-only pool in Sydney, there are over thirty mixed sex pools on the city. Why not target one of those to become 'femme presenting only?' Likewise the Hampstead swimming ponds used to be mixed, men only and women only. They are now officially all based on what swimming costume you wear. Third spaces get ignored, women's spaces get targeted.

@PermanentTemporary

HMP Downview has a separate unit for transitioned men (transwomen) who are considered too risky to place in the women's estate.

It was set up in a rush after the Karen White case, using space in a women's prison that had been earmarked for recreation and education spaces.

I would say as well that when female prisoners speak up on this, I always hear them say that they don't at all mind having transitioned men in the women's estate as long as they aren't convicted sex criminals and as long as they can be removed if problems arise. I believe that no male should be in the women's estate but that's what prisoners tend to say. I can imagine that males change the dynamic in ways that many women would like.

This unit failed, and was never used for its purpose.

The TW prisoners, regarded as too dangerous on risk assessment to be in a women's prison, and so were to have the compromise of being in the unit but within a women's prison -

took the MoJ to court, argued discrimination, and got full access to women prisoners, regardless of the risk.

There is zero capacity for care or even basic consideration for females in any of this. Which mean very firm, strong boundaries are needed.

Please remember too that those TW prisoners chose to have behaviours and a criminal history that rendered them too dangerous.

Chose.

@Artichokeleaves
Has a valid point.
In Canada a male in a "SuperMax" prison won the right to transfer to a women's prison, the Canadian solution is to build a Women's SM prison to house 1 prisoner as there was no prior need for a woman's one.
By default women will be housed in that prison to make it economically viable

@CreepingDeath

*Third spaces would lie empty, because they are empty of women. It's women and their presence who are the attraction. Not the space itself.* After all, who is there to validate their identity if the space is empty of women? It would mean 'outing' themselves every time they went into the third space. It would mean that they would have to accept themselves aa something 'other' than a woman. Which defeats their goal.

This is something that needs reiterating again and again. This is the end game. Nothing less than total colonisation. The whole point is being 'accepted' into women's spaces as a woman, that is how they get their kicks (not allowed to mention the actual name for it). It is the whole fecking mission!

'We just want to pee' is a red herring designed to sound fragile and reasonable. But it is completely unreasonable for the simple fact that they should not be there in the first place, they can go pee in the sex segregated space that was designed for them.

We cannot be left to come up with reasonable solutions for people who are determined to be unreasonable.

Someone previously quoted Helen Joyce (who is getting more and more angry), as she says we just have to win this, because there is no acceptable middle ground here that serves everyone. They want something they are not entitled to, and they are determined to bully their way in. We cannot let that happen.

I would advise you that your compassion is misguided OP, we are being played.

Exactly. The presence of women in these spaces is crucial. The access to those women is the desired outcome. In order to achieve validation.

Which is why the suggestion of a third space is never taken up. But it's still worth making that suggestion to the uninformed, so they can see for them self.

I'm glad Helen Joyce is getting more and more angry. And it's inevitable. Perhaps there will be a Trans part two, detailing the response she got to Trans part one?

Personally, I disagree entirely that we should be making any kind of separate provision for anyone. The whole point of sex segregation is that it's segregated on sex. Of which there are only two. Pretending that there is a reason why this cannot be accommodated on that basis is part of the problem.

But, to be honest, at this stage, I couldn't give a shiny shit what happens, as long as women's spaces are preserved. If men want to subdivide their sex into all sorts of categories based on their sexism then maybe that's a public service of sorts, so we can all see what's what.

If men want to subdivide their sex into all sorts of categories based on their sexism then maybe that's a public service of sorts, so we can all see what's what.

That would be a very interesting exercise. I would support men sorting out their hierarchies and various classes and then questioning it all because it would be helpful on a remarkable scale.

Not wanting to get raped is not a good enough reason to move a transwoman to a womens prison. A lot of men get raped in prison, not just transwomen. Because males are more rapey than females. Shall we let any male who doesnt want to get raped move to a womens prison? Or if its about risk, I'm sure a short slim-built male would be at just as much risk as a transwoman so maybe we should tranfer sll the skinny men over to womens prison too. Sorry to sound callous but its not women's fault that men are violent and rapey, and not our problem that men's prisons are unsafe

Male violence is the issue. I no longer concern myself with seeking solutions to problems faced by vulnerable males, especially when the solution requires me to sacrifice some of my own safety. I'm on team women, I would support any solution which respects our rights to safety, dignity and the right to use our own language.

Women in prison are the most vulnerable and powerless in society; nobody needs protection more than they.

Women's refuges took decades of penny-by-penny fundraising and fighting every step of the way.

Why would any group, however oppressed, however worthy, feel entitled to walk in and demand to cream off benefits never intended for them while putting the real beneficiaries at risk?

It's a clear case of colonisation and "I'll have that, thank you - hand it over!"

OP, do your friends perhaps think of TW as gentle creatures who have had full “reassignment surgery”?

You might remember mainstream coverage of Tara Hudson, the meek beautican who was too afraid to be housed in male prison and many, many women signed a petition to get them moved.

Cerian Jenkins, co-founder of the Bath Gender Equality Network, told the Guardian that Hudson was at real risk inside Bristol prison, which has been singled out by HM Inspectorate of Prisons for levels of violence “considerably higher than in similar prisons”.

“I think anyone who has seen the pictures of Tara will agree that she is definitely a woman,” Jenkins said. “The idea of sending a woman to an all-male prison sounds like the plot of a terrible movie, but that’s the reality for her.”

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/29/transgender-prisoner-tara-hudson-sexually-harassed-hmp-bristol

Some Mumsnetters who knew the criminal law found it very unlikely that anyone would be sent to prison for a first offence and with a very little research uncovered that Tara had headbutted a barman, and used her male genitalia to earn a living as a specialist sex worker.

A very, very different story than anyone not on Mumsnet was seeing reflected in the press.

My view is that if you’ve got a penis you shouldn’t be housed in women’s refuges, women’s wards or women’s shelters.

I’m confused by these loos in a large chain. DH confirmed the male toilets had urinals and stalls so why is it women and unisex rather than just male or female loos. Again women have to budge up’

@WhereYouLeftIt

"When I've had (heated) debates with friends taking the opposite stance, they often come up with the counter argument to keeping female only spaces, as 'where are raped transwomen supposed to go? Where are transwomen prisoners supposed to go? where are they supposed to go if they are domestically abused?' "

Where do your friends think women who've been raped and domestically abused, and are they aware of how those places came into being?

There have never been enough refuges, and we don't have to go too far back to when there were none at all. The first refuges were set up by women for women, with ZERO government (local nor national) funding. IIRC the very first was in 1971 in Chiswick where the council rented out a derelict building for a peppercorn rent to a local women's lib group. All the money, all the beds, all the bedding, food etc. were funded by the women. It was real hand-to-mouth stuff.

I'd be asking your friends why the trans community is not doing this. They'd even get government funding these days! Why are they nor organising and fundraising to make these refuges happen? Why is Stonewall not doing this with all their money and organisation and contacts?

Why are women expected to give up yet another had-fought for and still underfunded emergency facility?

And what do they think it's like for the traumatised women and children in these refuges having a male in there?

This comment says everything I wanted to say on this subject.

Women have fought long and hard for every right we have (and we weren't given them, they were and still are withheld from us) and women put the refuge's and shelters together, they were made by women for women.

Your friends are right in that we do need services for trans people who are raped or domestically abused, but not at the expense of single sex services which are already overwhelmed with women and girls who have a right not to be confronted by male bodied people, either as service users or service providers. Stonewall and Mermaids could be facilitating this if they really cared about trans people having these services. You have to wonder why they aren't.

Hudson had a string of extremely violent attacks in history. V volatile individual. Can't remember details but there were male victims who were v injured. Broken bones in face? Google has details.

Also was an escort who advertised a 'surprise' 7 inches.

Due to pics like above loads and loads fought to get moved to women's prison. But pics of face only no doubt altered etc give a very highly curated impression.

Photo leaving court with mum, impression when whole person with a woman v different.

I think lots of sorts of men are at high risk in prison. I really hate the idea that men in prison being brutalised is just a fact. And often joked about/ wished for when it's a paedophile etc.

If a male is at high risk in general prison then do something about it. Something that isn't bunging them in with the women FFS. And only one group of the at risk. What about the others?

I would say as well that when female prisoners speak up on this, I always hear them say that they don't at all mind having transitioned men in the women's estate as long as they aren't convicted sex criminals and as long as they can be removed if problems arise. I believe that no male should be in the women's estate but that's what prisoners tend to say. I can imagine that males change the dynamic in ways that many women would like

I don't know about "like". A few may, but you have to remember that many (most?) women in prison have already had a lifetime of survival strategies appeasing violent men. (What was that appalling statistic about women prisoners who have head injuries due to domestic violence? 80%?) It's amazing how quickly you snap back into that dynamic when you need to - and how many women are in an (understandable) state of denial about doing this at all.

Any links to women saying don't mind?

Because they don't seem to be asked often.

And I've seen plenty articles over the years with inmates saying issues with stuff. Eg communal showers.

Also don't mind, to my ear and said by women, generally means can just about put up with but are not happy.

@GoGoGretaDoll

This isn't the gotcha that people think it is, given women - and the women's movement - has been asked the same question about men approximately 895 times daily since 1971.

The answer is, as it has always been, campaign and fundraiser for your own spaces - men's spaces for men, trans-inclusive spaces for trans people. Crack on, we will cheer you on for the sidelines. But our focus and energy is on supporting women. We're not doing the labour for you. You didn't do it for us.

I think this has it in a nutshell.

I’m not convinced by the ‘third space’ argument, that would need a lot of funding and the taxpayer has already spent many many millions funding cosmetic surgery and therapy for this group which in my opinion isn’t what taxes are for.

Would transwomen be at risk of attack/rape in a male prison? Possibly. Just like most of the other inmates. Male prisons are grim places and violence is common, including sexual violence.

Does that mean it’s ok to put transwomen i to female prisons where they are physically stronger than the female inmates and intimidating to them? No it does not. One transwoman raping women in a female prison is too many, and that’s already happened.

If a transwoman doesn’t want to feel vulnerable in a male prison then I’d suggest not wearing make-up and dresses, and not doing a crime serious enough to earn a prison sentence.

This question and the responses to it are horrific, and what's really chilling is that I don't think any of you understand or care that these exact questions and conversations, and your "solutions" - segregationism - let them be raped in jail - deny them any form of public life - their problem not ours - are fundamentally dehumanising, and have been had throughout history about a lot of minorities. I'm pretty sure you can think of some of those minorities and the "solutions" - some degrading, some far worse than that, all dangerous to life and health - that those minorities had to live and die with.

Insert any other minority into this discussion and you will realise that this conversation would be easily transposed onto any white supremacist or far right website.

"A third space"? My mother was greeted with the signs when she came to this country: "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs." And she would recognise your conversation.

Take a step back from yourselves. What you have become is not good.

Nah mate sorry. Not remotely the same thing, and deeply dismissive of the harm and illogicality of racial segregation.

The problem with simply advocating third spaces is that realistically it won't happen due to space and cost for a very long time. There must be hundreds of thousands of toilet facilities available to the public up and down the country for a start. Which means no traction is made in getting males who identify as transgender out of women's spaces. Because they do need somewhere to go.

So the solution is to make men's spaces gender neutral or unisex and keep female spaces for the female sex. Refuges and prisons are different and third spaces should be provided by the government /trans organisation fundraising respectively.

@chiller

This question and the responses to it are horrific, and what's really chilling is that I don't think any of you understand or care that these exact questions and conversations, and your "solutions" - segregationism - let them be raped in jail - deny them any form of public life - their problem not ours - are fundamentally dehumanising, and have been had throughout history about a lot of minorities. I'm pretty sure you can think of some of those minorities and the "solutions" - some degrading, some far worse than that, all dangerous to life and health - that those minorities had to live and die with.

Insert any other minority into this discussion and you will realise that this conversation would be easily transposed onto any white supremacist or far right website.

"A third space"? My mother was greeted with the signs when she came to this country: "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs." And she would recognise your conversation.

Take a step back from yourselves. What you have become is not good.

Male and female in prisons and other things was brought in for reasons that should be obvious but apparently aren't any more. If sex is irrelevant then just have it all mixed.

What is your view on that?

Should trans men go in male prisons? Even if no physical changes and present as women? If your view is TWAW then TMAM and putting them in female estate is a cruel negation of the fact they are men.

Again interested to know your thoughts.

Would your mum have been comfy changing in a communal situation at a pool with males?

The problem with simply advocating third spaces is that realistically it won't happen due to space and cost for a very long time

Women aren't demanding third spaces though - we just want to keep the single-sex spaces we already have.

As PPs have said, it's not women's job to solve other people's problems - we have enough of our own to deal with.

It's not fair to burden women with the problem of how others should pay for the facilities that trans people clearly need when it's nothing to do with us.