What IS the answer?

[Youdonthavetobegood]

I'm firmly GC with my opinion now, and happy with that. But I have a few questions (hopefully not incendiary but who knows these days) but genuine ones that im not really sure the answer to.

When I've had (heated) debates with friends taking the opposite stance, they often come up with the counter argument to keeping female only spaces, as 'where are raped transwomen supposed to go? Where are transwomen prisoners supposed to go? where are they supposed to go if they are domestically abused?'

And I'm really not sure of the answer. Partly I kind of want to say, well it depends how far on their transitioning they are? Like, do they have a penis still? Can they still rape.women? But that somehow feels a bit crass, particularly in the refuge scenario.

So what is the answer to this kind of pushback? A third space? If so, would there be funding for this? It's not as though I don't have compassion for transwomen who have been raped or beaten, so I'm genuinely interested as to the best solution to this, that doesn't further endanger women, or transwomen (I guess in the case of them being in a male prison and fearing for their safety because they are trans.)

What's the compassionate answer?

This is not for women to solve. We only have what we have because of the hard work, sacrifice etc that women befire us put in. There is nothing nor has there ever been anything stopping men and males/ transwomen from setting up their own spaces. Everyone here would fight with them and donate towards that.

When that donkey kong guy spent hours playing computer games did he donate the money he raised to a shelter or prison build campaign ? No he donated to mermaids despite to prove a point.

As long as that mentality exists where fighting against feminists amd women takes priority over helping their own,.why should we waste our time ?

We are not everyones mirger . We are not here to solve everyone's problems for them.

Not everyone's mother

@334bu

*where are raped transwomen supposed to go? *

Where are raped men supposed to go?
Many men in prison will have been victims of rape by other men but nobody is advocating for them to be placed in female prisons. The solution is simple, make male prisons safe for all male prisoners no matter their gender identity.

Even outside prison men have been the victims of sexual violence. The opportunity to change the social stigma about these forgotten victims could have been championed by the TRA demanding services for both sexes rather than TW as women.

Remember the man who luring men home to drug and rape them would it have lasted so long if he had been targeting women? Imagine if a girl/woman said they could not remember what happened and woke up in a strange place some of her friends would have suggested she get herself checked out.

The Most Vulnerable mantra is only achieved by discarding other vulnerable groups.
A handy benefit is that it is cheap to provide services just by pushing them to the front of line for pre-existing services.

What's the compassionate answer?

With women. Where their womanly selves can be validated.

Third spaces just won't do. How can they get their validation fix?

The better question is where are those raped transwomen?

A very simple Google will show you some answers those friend won't like. Put in the question: how many transwomen in the UK have been raped?

EVERY response is about transwomen as the aggressor, not the victim.

Your friends are disytracting you with imposible questions, probably because they haven't actually thought much, read much or looked at actual data!

'where are raped transwomen supposed to go? Where are transwomen prisoners supposed to go? where are they supposed to go if they are domestically abused?'

The same places they went 10 years ago:

• Mixed sex shelters.
• Specialist refuges.
• Secure provision within the male prision estate.
• (For a tiny number of passing transsexuals who surgically transitioned) women's shelters and prisions.

Many women may disagree with the last one but it was vanishingly rare and did not seem to represent elevated risk, if the number of 'women' now committing rapes is anything to go by.

@Youdonthavetobegood

I'm firmly GC with my opinion now, and happy with that. But I have a few questions (hopefully not incendiary but who knows these days) but genuine ones that im not really sure the answer to.

When I've had (heated) debates with friends taking the opposite stance, they often come up with the counter argument to keeping female only spaces, as 'where are raped transwomen supposed to go? Where are transwomen prisoners supposed to go? where are they supposed to go if they are domestically abused?'

And I'm really not sure of the answer. Partly I kind of want to say, well it depends how far on their transitioning they are? Like, do they have a penis still? Can they still rape.women? But that somehow feels a bit crass, particularly in the refuge scenario.

So what is the answer to this kind of pushback? A third space? If so, would there be funding for this? It's not as though I don't have compassion for transwomen who have been raped or beaten, so I'm genuinely interested as to the best solution to this, that doesn't further endanger women, or transwomen (I guess in the case of them being in a male prison and fearing for their safety because they are trans.)

What's the compassionate answer?

We have single sex spaces for men and women for obvious reasons.

If adult human male doesn't want to use the men's space then surely it is for him and his allies to campaign for spaces that he would feel comfortable in. I cannot comment on the extent to which trans people need 3rd spaces, or can be happy in the correct sex based spaces, or whether in fact they need 3rd, 4th, 5th... 75th spaces - I cannot possibly know whether genderfucks and two spirits can feel comfortable in the same toilets or whether we need (at least?) one for each gender identity - that is for them to make clear and campaign on.

Clear recognition that sex is a fixed fact.

Third spaces and provision developed for those who identify differently to their sex as an alternative to respect their preference not to use facilities provided for their sex.

No permitted confusion that this means they should be using the facilities or resources for those of the opposite sex.

I will reserve 'compassion' for the point where I see groups like Stonewall or Mermaids manage the faintest grain of it for females. 'Compassion' and 'kindness' is not something females selflessly do for males without reciprocation. Those would be abusive relationships.

@donquixotedelamancha

'where are raped transwomen supposed to go? Where are transwomen prisoners supposed to go? where are they supposed to go if they are domestically abused?'

The same places they went 10 years ago:

• Mixed sex shelters.
• Specialist refuges.
• Secure provision within the male prision estate.
• (For a tiny number of passing transsexuals who surgically transitioned) women's shelters and prisions.

Many women may disagree with the last one but it was vanishingly rare and did not seem to represent elevated risk, if the number of 'women' now committing rapes is anything to go by.

Yep. As I have said here before, I work 'adjacent to' a local refuge and crisis centre. And that is what happens here.

Women in the refuge decided no transwomen.

Women in one of the other support goups, with a very different privacy set up, chose to accept them, with various provisos around safety and dignity, comfort etc.

So what is the answer to this kind of pushback? A third space? If so, would there be funding for this? It's not as though I don't have compassion for transwomen who have been raped or beaten, so I'm genuinely interested as to the best solution to this, that doesn't further endanger women, or transwomen (I guess in the case of them being in a male prison and fearing for their safety because they are trans.)

What's the compassionate answer?

Twofold. First of all, work to make male spaces more inclusive of gender-non-conforming males. All the preferred solutions let men off the hook completely. It is their behaviour that makes male transgender people feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Why is the solution to ignore where the responsibility lies and to inflict punishment on women instead? How is that compassionate to women?

(If your discussion is about prisons, you could counter that many male prisoner's are vulnerable and at increased risk of violence. Are we going to move all of them to women's prisons, too?)

And second, as others have already pointed out, where inclusion is not yet possible (because it will take some time for men to become more accepting), trans rights organisations have millions in funding, they could - right now, today - set up several third space solutions across the country.

I think it's telling that not one of them has done something as practical as that. And I'll tell you honestly, I think it's long overdue. I have an older trans teen in the wider family who desperately needs support. Given how many trans rights and LGBT organisations we have in Scotland, I thought it ought to be easy to get practical help. But it seems that apart from lobbying the government on self-id and telling us all just how difficult life is for them, and indoctrinating kids in the doctrine of gender identity, there's nothing else they use their millions for.

What's the compassionate answer?

An answer where 'compassion' does not translate as 'female people give up their rights and exclude some females from any space to put males and their wishes first'.

This is not for women to solve.
I agree. As far as I'm concerned, it's men - as a group - who need to learn some compassion, and also some self control. In the meantime, women need to protect themselves and each other.

I'm sure Stonewall could have raised the funds for third spaces ten times over had they so wished.

We could all just stop pretending

The answer is NO.

Males can find the solution to their own problems.

@Chipperfish

We could all just stop pretending

Yes.

I can't remember what I was listening to, but I heard a statistic that something like 80% of the female prison population is suffering from the after effects of a head injury |(from domestic violence). They shouldn't be required to be compassionate to the male bodied.

The trans lobby are vocal, well funded and well supported. If they had poured half their energy into establishing 3rd spaces than they have eroding free speech and creating a rainbow glitter climate of fear in every institution and big business in the country, there would be no problem for trans prisoners.

Men really need to solve their own issues, women are not support humans.

@Datun

Making provision for transwomen doesn't mean eliminating single sex spaces.

There is plenty of mixed sex provision already. It needs to be in addition to female only. You will find, however, that this third space option is unacceptable to some trans extremists. They require a female only space that only admits them. A third space doesn't validate their gender identity.

THIS in spades. Third spaces would lie empty, because they are empty of women. It's women and their presence who are the attraction. Not the space itself.

After all, who is there to validate their identity if the space is empty of women?

It would mean 'outing' themselves every time they went into the third space. It would mean that they would have to accept themselves aa something 'other' than a woman.
Which defeats their goal.

I think the compassionate answer is that the safety of all women, cis and trans, should be taken seriously and funded properly. If women's shelters, rape survivor groups etc were funded properly then you could probably have places for all women and places for cis women only who for whatever reason - no questions asked, no judgement - don't feel able to share these spaces with trans women.

Instead, trans women and cis women are fighting over the scraps we have from the patriarchy

Do you want to know my harshest response?

A few years ago, i was all TWAW, yeah sisters let's move over plenty of room for us all. Then i recognised that moving over wasn't enough, we were required to bow down and validate.

Back then i might have thrown some energy into creating a way for this to work for everyone.

But then came the violent threats and the lesbians with penises, so so many lesbians with penises.

And then, advocating for the removal of healthy body parts from children and adolescents, celebrating medicalising them for life.

All this, and much much more delivered with a #nodebate sucker punch.

Ask me now what the solution is? Not my fucking problem. Get the men to sort it out for once.

@Echobelly

Can you explain what you believe a "cis woman" is and why you use it when discussing the "patriarchy"?

Instead, trans women and cis women are fighting over the scraps we have from the patriarchy

Can you perhaps explain this further? Given the very different life experiences of women and transwomen, which scraps might one group need that would also be needed by the other?

For me, trans women are the patriarchy. Just another form of toxic males trying to prevent women having a full public life and chance to flourish as human beings independent of the control of men. Transwomen are not trying to smash male stereotypes and expand the bandwidth of what it is to be a man, allowing all males to explore a different side to themselves. No, they trample all over women, use us for validation but suppress our right to our own identities and put us into ever smaller boxes until we disappear from view. Why should I spend my energy caring about them more than any other toxic men?

I think that a great thing for the trans community and groups like SW to organize would be refuges for transwomen or transmen, if the latter wanted them.

But I don't get the issue with prisons. Transwoman prisoners can't go in with women, and if they also shouldn't go in with men, the answer is going to be what happens to all at-risk prisoners which is they have to go into some kind of segregation/special custody. I don't see why this is seen as tricky, there are plenty of prisoners who are considered to be at risk.

The other option might be special trans wings but that might mean incarcerating people farther from their family, which could be a trade-off in some cases. I'm not convinced that the prisoners would even really want that, but you never know.

42?

Will read thread now...

@Echobelly

I think the compassionate answer is that the safety of all women, cis and trans, should be taken seriously and funded properly. If women's shelters, rape survivor groups etc were funded properly then you could probably have places for all women and places for cis women only who for whatever reason - no questions asked, no judgement - don't feel able to share these spaces with trans women.

Instead, trans women and cis women are fighting over the scraps we have from the patriarchy

Nope. Just all wonky.

Women have fought for what we have. Argued, organised, fundraised, raised profile of issues, created, lobbied for etc.

With refuges it's all changed anyway. Reliance on bidding for funding came. Funding comes with strings. And for rape crisis etc been cut for years.

Councils have to provide I think, like libraries. They have less funds. So seek to do as cheap as poss.

In some areas provision has been pulled from long standing grass roots type orgs and handed to big companies that are cheap. And have no experience. Also they need to provide for men and women.

Brighton the company is experienced in helping those leaving prison.

So it's all a bit moot- things are changing on the ground.

Just FYI.

So none of this is going to be funded properly. Full stop.

Next. Extra provision/ 3rd spaces. As pp have mentioned with the high profile, corporate cash etc of trans issues for last few years. Setting things up for trans people could have been done. Things for that groups particular needs. Experiences etc. Trans women and trans men and non binary people would be best served in provision that is tailored. Trans women and... Vagina owners do not have same anything. Including in women's stuff will not be best for anyone using the service. I mean it's obvious.

That has never been focus even slightly for charities etc. And in fact is seen as a transphobic suggestion. Even though it's obviously going to help both groups better.