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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

WPUK: A Woman’s Place is NOT in prison

102 replies

Cwenthryth · 27/10/2021 18:26

I’m heading town to this meeting in central London tonight. There’s a hashtag #WPUKPrisons to follow for live tweeting and as ever everything will be uploaded as videos later.

Am very interested to learn more about this topic, as it is an area I know little about beyond headlines. Especially interested to see where any commonality may be with those self-proclaimed “intersectional feminists” who say we all have to be “anti-carceral”.

OP posts:
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RoyalCorgi · 29/10/2021 11:31

I think what happens is that women get fined for non-payment of the TV licence, and end up going to prison for non-payment of the fine. Because if you can't afford to pay for the TV licence, you're probably not going to be able to afford to pay a fine.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/10/2021 11:39

That definitely did happen in the past, and women are convicted more for this so ended up in jail over it more frequently. But I think people aren't now in practice being sent to jail for non payment of TV licence fines. However I think it's still possible to do so, so it's not completely a civil offence.

ArcheryAnnie · 29/10/2021 11:50

@Viviennemary

If a woman commits a crime punishable by a prison sentence why should it not apply. Absent fathers in prison impact on families too. Should they not go to prison either.
Father goes to prison: in most cases the mother will keep the family together, including (if there is still contact) taking the kids to see him in prison, etc. Kids continue to live in the family home, go to the same school, see their existing friends, etc.

Mother goes to prison: strong likelihood that the kids will end up in care. May be in a different location to original family home. Their lives are upended.

That's the reality.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/10/2021 12:16

I couldn't post this with screenshots for some reason.

On the issue of TV licences and non-payment of the fine and imprisonment, all of these sources stress that it's still a possibility:

StepChange has updated their guidance in August 2020 and it still stands after the consultation:

www.stepchange.org/debt-info/tv-licence-fines.aspx

Cordbusters updated after the govt. consultation (Jan 2021):

www.cordbusters.co.uk/tv-licence-fee-jail-government-makes-decision/

This is Money article (August 2021) mentions potential imprisonment for non-payment: www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-9893381/Pensioners-denied-free-TV-licence-warned-BBC-enforcers.html

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/10/2021 12:17

Screenshots for 2 of the links in the above post:

WPUK: A Woman’s Place is NOT in prison
WPUK: A Woman’s Place is NOT in prison
NiceGerbil · 29/10/2021 19:50

It is off topic but it is still a criminal offence.

NiceGerbil · 29/10/2021 19:53

In terms of the children thing.

The point often gets taken as women should be treated more leniently than men because children. And that's just not anything like what's being said. But the conversation seems to often end up being women do bad things too why should they get off lightly.

.

NiceGerbil · 29/10/2021 19:57

There are many points that come first around-

Nature of offences
Length of sentence (for both sexes there's strong evidence that short terms do more harm than good and other things could/would be better. Women in prison are serving much shorter sentences than men a lot)
++ loads of other things about the female population in prison

Which make is a case for a rethink.

And the fact that there is way more likely to be impact possibly major on children is another thing to remember when thinking about the main points.

The links I provided have much fuller info.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 29/10/2021 23:07

As a slight aside…

Elizabeth Fry (née Gurney; 21 May 1780 – 12 October 1845), sometimes referred to as Betsy Fry, was an English prison reformer, social reformer, philanthropist and Quaker. Fry was a major driving force behind new legislation to improve the treatment of prisoners, especially female inmates, and as such has been called the 'Angel of Prisons'.

She was instrumental in the 1823 Gaols Act which mandated sex-segregation of prisons and female warders for female inmates to protect them from sexual exploitation. Fry kept extensive diaries in which the need to protect female prisoners from rape and sexual exploitation is explicit.

NiceGerbil · 29/10/2021 23:13

I think I've heard the name- good info will look her up, thanks!

FlyingOink · 30/10/2021 00:13

The USA I'm sure we're all well aware has massive problems. Too many to list let alone go into but things like. That it's run as an industry. The output from the work done is a astonishingly large % of USA economic output. The racism, differentials in sentencing for similar crimes due to various factors about the person. The existence of eye wateringly long terms for relatively not huge crimes. The proportion of black men who will go to prison. The % of population in prison.

"The 13th amendment abolished slavery in the United States and provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States..."

An awful lot of factory work in the US is carried out by prisoners, many in for-profit prisons. There's no incentive to reduce prison population or sentence length there. Also I read that although prisoners can't vote, they count in terms of the population of the county the prison is in, which affects resources allocated and other political nonsense apparently. It's a very fucked up system and not comparable to the UK at all.

Back on the UK - I hear that many of the drugs possession with intent convictions are the boyfriend's drugs, but the boyfriend doesn't officially live with the woman. He has little chance of having his own place (studies show most drug dealers effectively make less than minimum wage) so he either keeps his drugs at his mum's or his girlfriend's.

ScreamingMeMeSawUs · 30/10/2021 12:28

From a TRA who was at the "protest":

"This is fucked up. I was there for 10 minutes and was genuinely stunned at the vile misogyny being spewed by some of the protesters."

"We cannot let this happen again. We as trans people and allies need to step up and stop it."

twitter.com/RebeccaTransUK1/status/1453485707922661384?s=20

I’m just in shock. Still. I’m probably gonna take a bit of a break from Twitter and this entire debate.

Might be for a few days, might be for a few weeks. I don’t know.

I just can’t believe what I saw. It’s crushed what I believe.

WPUK: A Woman’s Place is NOT in prison
PlonitbatPlonit · 30/10/2021 19:59

@frogface69

I apologise for sounding snippy. It’s great that this is being supported and I applaud everyone who has attended. I do wonder how you are supposed to know about these kind of things, though. It’s as though there is a secret cabal or something.
There's definitely no secret cabal. Woman's Place UK has a public website womansplaceuk.org . There's a mailing list you can subscribe to which will ensure you get mail shots with event details. It's also possible to subscribe to the Eventbrite.
PlonitbatPlonit · 30/10/2021 20:00

Woman's Place UK have published an open letter about the abuse from protestors of their meeting womansplaceuk.org/2021/10/30/open-letter-swp-abusive-protest/

NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 20:45

I feel bad for Rebecca I really do.

With the sharp end of this on Twitter it's all so polarised.

I really hope that trans people who are not the shouty misogynist type get together and also push back.

In the end very very few people male or female think that opening all previously single sex things up is fair, right or safe.

NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 20:46

And I mean so many of us recognise standard male anger at women saying no.

Horrible men are having a great time. Free for all against women esp old school feminists and lesbians. Xmas come early for them.

FlyingOink · 31/10/2021 01:15

[quote PlonitbatPlonit]Woman's Place UK have published an open letter about the abuse from protestors of their meeting womansplaceuk.org/2021/10/30/open-letter-swp-abusive-protest/[/quote]
Oh wow. Seeing the abuse typed out is quite something.

ScreamingMeMeSawUs · 31/10/2021 09:54

It is indeed FlyingOink

"These include comments such as:

“Shut the fck up, you cnt” shouted into the face of our chief steward.

“Call Weightwatchers, your body’s not doing it.”

“Your hair is minging, buy a weave.”

“Your breath smells like you’ve been eating are, have you been eating her ase?”

“Are you a lesbian? No man would want that.”

“Your breasts are on the floor, buy a bra and some hair dye too.”

“You fucking bald b*tch.”

“You’re a stuck-up b*tch.”

“I have a better body than you. Like, you have no bum. How do you sit down? What kind of man would want you? A blind man?”

“We don’t want pensioners. We don’t want dinosaurs like all you lot. You are not going to be around in 40 years. Well, 40’s a push.”

“You call yourself a woman? DIE! DIE! DIE!”

To people arriving for the Black Business event (who did not interact with the protestors):

“You went through slavery, you went through discrimination, rape, sexual harassment, the slave masters raped and sexually abused you and now you are abusing me, as a trans woman?”

“You were persecuted. You were nothing under slavery.”

“You look me in the eye. Your ancestors went through slavery and you are here. Hang your head in shame. Slave Master! Yes! Slave Master!”

“You call yourself Black people?”

“Why are you here? Are you supporting these Nazis? Are you supporting neo-Nazis?” "

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/10/2021 10:36

Christ.

dyslek · 31/10/2021 10:42

I'v noticed in the last six months or so that the 'trans woman' I see on the street are men that would have been/are in the mental health system.
I think this identity is being adopted by men who are long term mental health service users, presumerbly as it confers some protection. I think having that status means their behaviours are tolerated more in a mental health setting.

Cwenthryth · 31/10/2021 13:07

SWP have replied

swp.org.uk/swp-response-to-letter-from-womans-place-uk/

TL:DR is

  • Mantra mantra mantra
  • it wasn’t us
  • apart from yes those are our members
  • but it’s probably the evil Tories fault anyway
OP posts:
Alektopteryx · 31/10/2021 13:09

The SWP's reply is everything I expected from them.

ScreamingMeMeSawUs · 31/10/2021 13:38

The attacks on trans rights are pushed by the Tories and the wider right—and go hand in hand with attacks on women’s rights.

LOL WHAT.

FlyingOink · 31/10/2021 17:04

@Cwenthryth

SWP have replied

swp.org.uk/swp-response-to-letter-from-womans-place-uk/

TL:DR is

  • Mantra mantra mantra
  • it wasn’t us
  • apart from yes those are our members
  • but it’s probably the evil Tories fault anyway
The party will investigate this in accordance with our procedures.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/09/socialist-workers-party-rape-kangaroo-court

ScreamingMeMeSawUs · 31/10/2021 17:29

Oh my god. Misogynistic to the core.