For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

A lot of surprising assertions on this thread, but I’m really stuck on the part where talking about the characteristic we share with over four billion other humans means that we think we’re special.

Such a bizarre thing to say. The resentment for women is practically dripping off the screen. It gives me the creeps.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
"You don't need to be the same to have solidarity - how ridiculous"
Nobody ever said that trans women are the same as cis women. It's just the fact that you refuse to treat trans women as women at all, not even a different kind of woman, that precludes any kind of solidarity.

What do you mean "refuse to treat transwomen as women at all?" I don't understand what you're saying here. If we accepted your definition of woman as being related to some ephemeral identity - what would it mean to treat someone like a person who had that identity (or one of those identities given no evidence for commonality of identity)? Are you actually talking about the request to keep sex-segregated spaces sex segregated? But they're not segregated according to your definition of identity. Why do you think they should be?

"And yes it bloody would hurt to use an adjective like cis because, as has been outlined loads of times before - most women are not cis."
Hahahahhahaha. Cis means not trans. That's it. Nothing else. Are you saying trans women make up the majority of all women? Now that's a novel idea.*

Not sure what your logic is here? I said most women are not cis. How on earth would that suggest trans women make up the majority of women? Unless you are suggesting that only people who identify as women are women? If that were true then yes I would think that trans women do form the vast majority of women. It's not true though. You seem to disagree with Stonewall's definition of cis. This is what they say
"According to the National Health Service's Gender Identity Development Service (NHS GIDS), being cisgender means that you identify with the gender that you were assigned by birth. For example, if you are born a woman and you decide that you agree with that definition, it would meant that you are cisgender."*

So yeah, you need to identify with a gender to be cis. You really should educate yourself. Then you might understand why people are feeling misgendered by your insistence on putting us in the boxes that you have socially constructed.

No, many of us simply reject the insistence that we all have a gender identity at all.

[quote SpookySeason77]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
"Still sure every member on here must be "cis"?"
Considering all of you aggressively reject the very notion of a gender identity that diverges from the one assigned at birth... yes, I'm absolutely certain all of you are cis, and not non-binary.[/quote]
I'm non-binary.

Good thing we do have different names then: "trans women" and "cis women". Two subsets of the larger group, "women", to which both subsets belong

So apparently I am "a bigot" for saying transwomen are male, despite up thread a trans poster claimed TW don't deny their own biology or however it was put, don't claim to be the same as women.

On the other hand we have a dogmatic gender ideologist refusing to accept, in fact laughs in the face of women who repeatedly explain how "cis" is extremely offensive with lots of examples of why and explanations, they then go on to repeat themselves in using "cis" and no one has yet called them a bigot. When you actually understand the definition of "bigot" that is surprising.

@LonginesPrime

So you're a transphobe, fine enough. Now can you please cease your incessant screeching and flailing around whenever your blatant bigotry is called out for what it is?

Why is it that everyone should do what you want, but when you are asked not to use gay people as an example of something else, you decide to ignore my request and instead go on to post something overtly homophobic, then ignore the posters calling you out on it?

Why do you deserve respect but other people don't?

Pointing out that your transphobic rhetoric perfectly mirrors homophobic rhetoric from the 80s is "offensive" to you, why exactly? Is it just the fact you don't like being called out, having a mirror held out to you?

Different forms of bigotry are often similar to each other, use the same strategies. This is no different.

Just to be clear, as spooky agreed with my definition - for cisgender people, the word used to describe your gender - which could be woman - must be the same as the one to describe your sex - which could be female - so woman-gender+ female-sex = trans.

If the word used to describe your gender is 'none' and your sex is 'female' then presumably you are trans.

What if you have a sex observed at birth (eg female), a gender identity assigned a birth (eg if your parents resolved to raise you as non-binary) but you later identify as a third descriptor (e.g. woman) - are you doubly trans?

So you're a transphobe, fine enough. Now can you please cease your incessant screeching and flailing around whenever your blatant bigotry is called out for what it is?

So, by your definition then, you are a woman phobe? Can you now stop your incessant aggression, tantruming and attempts to shut down conversations in which people refuse to bow to your superiority? Can I call out your blatant misogyny and self aggrandizement for what it is?

Got a t-shirt! It's transphobic to disagree with me about my gender identity!

I couldn't care less how they identify. Genuinely. Couldn't give a fuck. I generally try to respect chosen pronouns etc. What I do object to is being told how I have to identify, without my agreement, using a term I don't identify with. It's, as I've said before, rank hypocrisy and no amount of foot stamping is going to make me agree.

The spaces? You may not like it but there are allowances given in the Equality Act 2010 for single sex spaces (in most cases for females) such as rape crisis services. Human beings cannot change sex. That's not a value judgement, just a simple fact. If someone was born male, whoever they now identify, they are still not eligible to access those single sex spaces, on account of their sex.

Considering all of you aggressively reject the very notion of a gender identity that diverges from the one assigned at birth... yes, I'm absolutely certain all of you are cis, and not non-binary

You're either mistaken or lying.
By your own definition I'm not cisgender.

Just out of interest spooky, why DID you change the wording in the question I asked (biological sex) to 'gender identity assigned at birth'?
Are you saying they are the same and the terms are interchangeable?

Or did you just get it wrong - in which case can you answer the question I actually asked? Or will you ignore it because you are unable to?

Why is it transphobic to say TW are male? If they weren’t male they wouldn’t be trans. Are supposed to say TW are female? That would be a paradox wouldn’t it?

Also Cis means same side as, so for that to be true of me something (“gender identity”) would have to be the same as something else (“gender assigned” at birth) but I don’t have either of those things so they can’t be the same as each other, so I’m not cis.

However if it did mean “not trans” it would be unnecessary anyway. Woman and transwoman is fine because the meaning of trans shows that the person is not the sex named.

It is not comparable to “straight” at all.
Gay and straight are mutually exclusive opposites that makes sense as definitions, which is why no one I’ve ever met who does not like “cis” ever objected to straight.

Cis is not needed because transwoman and woman contain all the info.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Got a t-shirt! It's transphobic to disagree with me about my gender identity!

See, the thing is, there'd be nothing stopping you from genuinely identifying as non-binary. The issue is that, considering literally everything you've said, you're being blatantly facetious.

Aren't you the ones trying to dictate for trans women how they have to identify, or which spaces they shouldn't be allowed to use?

Transwomen can identify however they like but they can't force people to believe something which is not true.
Moreover, why should transwomen be allowed into female only spaces when they are not female?

Pointing out that your transphobic rhetoric perfectly mirrors homophobic rhetoric from the 80s is "offensive" to you, why exactly? Is it just the fact you don't like being called out, having a mirror held out to you?

If I'm mirroring someone who raises their left arm, I raise my right.
So by 'mirroring' you mean doing the opposite?

Wait but why aren’t facetious gender identities allowed? What is this weird rule that people have to take their declared “gender identity” seriously, when there are literally no other rules about it?

See, the thing is, there'd be nothing stopping you from genuinely identifying as non-binary.

Or a trans man, or a trans woman.

[quote SpookySeason77]@saluca
"Again, you cannot argue the different needs between two distinct groups of people if you have to use the same name for them."
Good thing we do have different names then: "trans women" and "cis women". Two subsets of the larger group, "women", to which both subsets belong.

That way you can use "women" to refer to the issues that affect both cis and trans women, and "cis women" to refer to the issues that affect cis women specifically.[/quote]
If you're so keen on telling us what we must call ourselves, I'm sure you won't mind if we point out that you're displaying stereotypical male entitlement.

Tonight Matthew I am a gender outlaw.

Tomorrow I may be omnigender.

An outlaw and God, that'll do me nicely. None of this cis stuff, begone heathens.

Pointing out that your transphobic rhetoric perfectly mirrors homophobic rhetoric from the 80s is "offensive" to you, why exactly? Is it just the fact you don't like being called out, having a mirror held out to you?

1. Gaslighting
2. Cis is offensive, can you please stop using it you should not need to be asked again
3. Can you please stop comparing the gay rights cause with gender ideology imposition because the two things could not be more different and you should not need to be asked again.

Cherub, it's quite simple. Either you don't impose your belief system on me, or if you do, I, with my knowledge of my life and the relationship I have had with my body and relationship I have had with the sex role stereotypes imposed by society, get to pick the word within the belief system that I think best fits.

You don't get to insist I am included in the belief system and then assign me anywhere.

And spooky is yet another make with no regard for consent.

[quote SpookySeason77]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
"Still sure every member on here must be "cis"?"
Considering all of you aggressively reject the very notion of a gender identity that diverges from the one assigned at birth... yes, I'm absolutely certain all of you are cis, and not non-binary.[/quote]
Actually if we were to use the terms of your ideology, most of us are agender. Which is a valid identity, right? We don't have gender identities to match (or not match) our sex.

The confusion comes in because we use the word 'woman' to refer to biological sex alone, while you use it to refer to gender. Acknowledging that difference, even if you disagree with our usage, woukd prevent misconceptions like this one here.

No feminist is 'cis'.