Why is black fishing unacceptable but identifying as a woman fair game?

[Blessex]

Please help me understand.

I know a lot of posters will agree that 'blackface' is unacceptable therefore 'womanface' should be too and all that but as a black woman (well mixed but it doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread), I'd rather be called a bitch a million times over than the n-word. I would rather neither, but my god the racism I've witnessed /endured versus the sexism is really a different level.

Good question OP, I have been wondering this myself. Aside from random men wanting to identify as women on demand, why is drag so acceptable insofar as things like drag queen story time aimed at children when drag is such a misogynist portrayal of women, a complete caricature of the worst kind.

But why is self identifying as a black person considered socially unacceptable but self identifying as a woman is considered ‘inclusive and kind’. Even more weird to me given that sex self id can actually cause physical harm (sports, safe spaces etc)

Ps this is exactly what Dave Chapelle wonders. Caitlyn Jenner wins woman of the year after 12 months of being a woman and we all clap and feel cool and inclusive. Eminem wins black rapper of the year…….?

I guess it depends on who is ahead in the oppression Olympics.

Sexism only affects women and many people, including other women, don't give a shit about women as a whole.

Different people view racism and sexism differently. I find sexism and the idea that males think they can 'identify' as a woman based on regressive stereotypes far more intolerable than any of the racism I've experienced.

@VladmirsPoutine

I know a lot of posters will agree that 'blackface' is unacceptable therefore 'womanface' should be too and all that but as a black woman (well mixed but it doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread), I'd rather be called a bitch a million times over than the n-word. I would rather neither, but my god the racism I've witnessed /endured versus the sexism is really a different level.

This is why anecdote isn't helpful. I've had vicious sexism to contend with all through my career, I haven't been called a bloody Paki and told to go home since I was 9 years old. My experience is that sexism has had a much more serious impact on my adult life than racism. Neither of us is right or wrong.

many people, including other women, don't give a shit about women as a whole.
This.

@VladmirsPoutine

I know a lot of posters will agree that 'blackface' is unacceptable therefore 'womanface' should be too and all that but as a black woman (well mixed but it doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread), I'd rather be called a bitch a million times over than the n-word. I would rather neither, but my god the racism I've witnessed /endured versus the sexism is really a different level.

Do you consider rape, murder, forced child marriage or being sex trafficked a much lesser level than racism?

I appreciate I know nothing first hand of racism but just because you haven’t experienced the worst of the misogyny out there doesn’t make it less harmful surely? I know some of these problems are doubly worse for women of colour but it’s not like they are a just some very minor problem for white women, we are still raped and killed and harassed by men at a very high rate precisely because of our sex, and male entitlement and violence against wags.

Because men want to be women, so men get what they want.

Totally agree, @BloodinGutters. I'm very privileged in that I haven't experienced the worst that either racism or misogyny can do.

Maybe because the people most in favour of these double standards - transwomen, can be black and therefore experience racism, but can't be women so can't experience misogyny, therefore it's not a problem to pay attention to.

(I am aware that a great deal of people who are in favour of these double standards are not transwomen, but they are basically towing the line that TW want).

I think also there's a long history of the masculinisation and indeed dehumanisation of black women to justify their mistreatment and down right abuse. In short it's not a competition and I realise it's not the same for all women even of the same race but it is curious that 'trans racialism' invites a great deal more scrutiny / ridicule than 'trans genderism'. But then again feminism is a broad church so I've managed to find my little corner among the chaos.

I mean, I suspect the main reason people object to blackfishing so much is that white people use it to make money, then take the fake tan back off again when it doesn’t suit. Whereas Caitlyn Jenner aside, I can’t think of any men who have transitioned publicly and had a big increase in popularity. Or who swapped back when it suited them to be male again.

I can see the potential with women’s sport, and I can imagine if somebody transitioned to win some medals but presented as male in their daily life, that would get called out too. Maybe not by the most committed Twitter warriors, but I think most people would see that as problematic.

Neither is acceptable IMO. There is a certain amount of fetishisation of ‘black’ people (as long as those black people are not too black ) . Whereas the fetishisation of women is the opposite extreme (Uber feminine). Both are insulting and come from a place of privilege and ignorance. If I had my way I’d ban them both.

@DrRamsesEmerson

Totally agree, *@BloodinGutters*. I'm very privileged in that I haven't experienced the worst that either racism or misogyny can do.

I actually think it’s kinda fucked that we live in a world where not being raped for being a woman or not being beaten for being a poc is considered privilege. It should be the basic bare minimum any person gets.

I think the main issue with blackfishing, or cultural appropriation in general, is when white people profit from it. No one particularly cares if some random girl wears ridiculous fake tan and braids her hair, but it's beyond infuriating when that girl then makes a hugely successful pop video, when so many black girls have been denied that opportunity.

Similarly, most people I know are perfectly accepting of other people living their own life as whatever gender stereotype they choose, but we start to take issue when it puts women in danger, or when men start to profit from it at the expense of women (eg sports people).

@Changechangychange

I mean, I suspect the main reason people object to blackfishing so much is that white people use it to make money, then take the fake tan back off again when it doesn’t suit. Whereas Caitlyn Jenner aside, I can’t think of any men who have transitioned publicly and had a big increase in popularity. Or who swapped back when it suited them to be male again.

I can see the potential with women’s sport, and I can imagine if somebody transitioned to win some medals but presented as male in their daily life, that would get called out too. Maybe not by the most committed Twitter warriors, but I think most people would see that as problematic.

Drag stars put on woman face and take it off again as it suits them all the time to make money.

And a great deal of those who are trans under stonewalls umbrella includes men who don’t transition physically in any way and just some times put on women’s clothes and claim to be women and demand access to women’s spaces or lesbians bodies just because they are wearing woman face on Tuesdays and Fridays.

So yeah woman face can be taken off again easily.

@Changechangychange I mean, I suspect the main reason people object to blackfishing so much is that white people use it to make money, then take the fake tan back off again when it doesn’t suit.

Ok I get that. And it’s crap. But equally what about men who self id as women to then enter female spaces and abuse women physically. Or take our sports prizes. It’s not about money. But arguably about something worse.

@ViceLikeBlip

I think the main issue with blackfishing, or cultural appropriation in general, is when white people profit from it. No one particularly cares if some random girl wears ridiculous fake tan and braids her hair, but it's beyond infuriating when that girl then makes a hugely successful pop video, when so many black girls have been denied that opportunity.

Similarly, most people I know are perfectly accepting of other people living their own life as whatever gender stereotype they choose, but we start to take issue when it puts women in danger, or when men start to profit from it at the expense of women (eg sports people).

I think that is it. I am super happy for people to live their lives as they wish. But when it affects other people eg they make money off it, they are able to abuse off it, win medals off it - isn’t that where we draw the line. So why haven’t we drawn the line?

@NonnyMouse1337

Sexism only affects women and many people, including other women, don't give a shit about women as a whole.

In my experience I sadly think this is true. When I try and engage women they are all ‘faaaaar tooooo busy’. It’s the men who are starting to engage in my life.

DrRamsesEmerson You and MissLucyEyelesbarrow have some of my favourite comfort fiction characters' names. [/merail]

Sexism only affects women and many people, including other women, don't give a shit about women as a whole.

There's a scene in a film where one of the women characters is confronted with the villainy of her protector/lover and she declares something along the lines of: I don't care if he hits old ladies and children in the face, he's good to me and that's all I need to know.

It's the Oppression Olympics.

@ViceLikeBlip

I think the main issue with blackfishing, or cultural appropriation in general, is when white people profit from it. No one particularly cares if some random girl wears ridiculous fake tan and braids her hair, but it's beyond infuriating when that girl then makes a hugely successful pop video, when so many black girls have been denied that opportunity.

Similarly, most people I know are perfectly accepting of other people living their own life as whatever gender stereotype they choose, but we start to take issue when it puts women in danger, or when men start to profit from it at the expense of women (eg sports people).

And men never ever benefit from identifying as women and then claiming to be oppressed. Although their doing so affects a greater percentage of the population to a greater degree in virtually all areas of society.

@Changechangychange

I mean, I suspect the main reason people object to blackfishing so much is that white people use it to make money, then take the fake tan back off again when it doesn’t suit. Whereas Caitlyn Jenner aside, I can’t think of any men who have transitioned publicly and had a big increase in popularity. Or who swapped back when it suited them to be male again.

I can see the potential with women’s sport, and I can imagine if somebody transitioned to win some medals but presented as male in their daily life, that would get called out too. Maybe not by the most committed Twitter warriors, but I think most people would see that as problematic.

Eddie Izzard swaps back to male for acting purposes.

It’s a good question. I have no idea.. I am currently identifying as Elon Musk. I’ll be heading to the bank tomorrow to withdraw my billions.