Why is black fishing unacceptable but identifying as a woman fair game?

[Blessex]

Please help me understand.

Apologies for typos

Blessex you’re making entertainment out of comparing someone’s suffering you don’t understand

It doesn’t exactly show you in a good light

People accept one, because when it comes right down to it, they believe in pink brains and blue brains.

They don't believe in black brains and white brains, so they push right back the moment someone expects them to accept anything resting on such an idea.

@SomePosters what do you assume I don’t understand? You another one who wants to shut down a civilised discussion on gender ideology?

I haven’t experienced racism since primary school. But I experience sexism every single day. It’s a much more real and present issue in my everyday life. And I totally agree that if blackface is unacceptable then womanface should be too.

Good question.

I do understand why black-fishing is problematic obviously but people can see that clearly and consider it. They can't see any problems with identifying with being a woman just because you want to. It is offensive to women.

@Changechangychange

I mean, I suspect the main reason people object to blackfishing so much is that white people use it to make money, then take the fake tan back off again when it doesn’t suit. Whereas Caitlyn Jenner aside, I can’t think of any men who have transitioned publicly and had a big increase in popularity. Or who swapped back when it suited them to be male again.

I can see the potential with women’s sport, and I can imagine if somebody transitioned to win some medals but presented as male in their daily life, that would get called out too. Maybe not by the most committed Twitter warriors, but I think most people would see that as problematic.

That's true.

I remember people got really upset by this.

metro.co.uk/2018/10/03/transgender-inmate-had-op-to-become-a-man-again-after-10-years-in-female-jail-7818605/

I thought the prisoner was just genuinely detransitioning because it was a statistically likely timeframe for transition regret to set in, but the general public were far harsher.

@Blessex

But why is self identifying as a black person considered socially unacceptable but self identifying as a woman is considered ‘inclusive and kind’. Even more weird to me given that sex self id can actually cause physical harm (sports, safe spaces etc)

I completely agree and have thought the same recently.

It is completely unacceptable to present yourself as black/mixed when you are not because you do not have the lived experience of growing up black and experiencing the prejudices and difficulties that black people may have faced.

The same can be said of being able to grow up male, with all the privileges that entails. You have not experienced what it is to grow up as a female so you can never truly understand.

I don't really see how people condemn the first but support the second.

I agree with PP - blackface / blackfishing has ALWAYS been an issue but now that white women feel impacted by trans ideology they've co-opted blackface to their own ends. White women one way or another have always been the gatekeepers of womanhood.

@SomePosters

Blessex you’re making entertainment out of comparing someone’s suffering you don’t understand

It doesn’t exactly show you in a good light

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I happen to think that Blessex asks a valid question that is central to our debate: why are women's concerns about this to be dismissed while (particularly) women are fiercely lambasted for appropriation, even when - as is the case with Grande and Ora - they have never pretended to be anything other than what they are?

And why is adopting something out of admiration and love for a particular culture to be condemned while adopting another thing to mock and ridicule it, often out of hatred and disgust, is to be tolerated?

Those are not questions asked for entertainment but in a desire to understand what mechanism underlies these differences and how we can respond to them to make better arguments for our cause.

And yes, I do understand the point being made about blackfishing. As with many other cultural and political concepts though, they do not automatically become true or valid because one particular group claims them to be. Especially since some of the claims about blackfishing make no sense outside of American race politics. No matter how much Americans want to believe that their way is the only way in the world, there is more to the world than just American history, culture and politics.

And critical theories are not the only way to analyse and understand the world.

@Changechangychange

I mean, I suspect the main reason people object to blackfishing so much is that white people use it to make money, then take the fake tan back off again when it doesn’t suit. Whereas Caitlyn Jenner aside, I can’t think of any men who have transitioned publicly and had a big increase in popularity. Or who swapped back when it suited them to be male again.

I can see the potential with women’s sport, and I can imagine if somebody transitioned to win some medals but presented as male in their daily life, that would get called out too. Maybe not by the most committed Twitter warriors, but I think most people would see that as problematic.

I don't even think it's necessarily about the switching back and forward - although I can see why that would annoy in both cases.

I think it's about things that are considered black culture being used to cache by people who haven't experienced black reality. I don't think that some of the people who are accused of black-fishing switch to a completely different 'white' style when they're not recording music or videos.

I do think it's a difficult topic though because obviously cultures do merge and pick up things from others, so it's very difficult to police who would be allowed to do/wear what - for example, braids.

I also think a PP has a point about Rita Ora, Ariana Grande etc. They have never claimed to be black and always been very honest about their origins. Rita Ora has made TV programmes about growing up in Kosovo. Just because people look at their skin tone and assume they are mixed-race, doesn't mean they are at fault surely? European people aren't exclusively lily-white, blue eyed and blonde.

I know a lot of posters will agree that 'blackface' is unacceptable therefore 'womanface' should be too and all that but as a black woman (well mixed but it doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread), I'd rather be called a bitch a million times over than the n-word.

This is a really interesting comment.
I'm not black but think I'd feel exactly the same, the N word does seem a million times worse.
Insult words about women, bitch, slag etc and brandished around freely, whereas racist words can't even be written out in full to be discussed. I get where the poster is coming from, racist words do carry a lot more weight in our society than insults specifically directed at women and our body parts. Why is this though? I get that PoC have experienced thousands of years of racism and millions and millions have even been murdered as a direct result, but this has also happened to females throughout history, hundreds of millions of them killed as well (or in modern times not allowed to be born), just for being female.

@VladmirsPoutine

I agree with PP - blackface / blackfishing has ALWAYS been an issue but now that white women feel impacted by trans ideology they've co-opted blackface to their own ends. White women one way or another have always been the gatekeepers of womanhood.

Defo agree that they are only being conflated now and many white people haven't paid attention before. No arguments there.

That said though, I think the heightened awareness has come from the 2 issues being highlighted in public consciousness at the same time but being treated so very differently, even though they are essentially very similar.

@VladmirsPoutine it was Dave Chapelle - a black man- who brought this to my attention and mulling it over. Then black fishing has been in the news recently.

But I experience sexism every single day
And it's in every single thing build around us invisibly.

www.waterstones.com/book/invisible-women/caroline-criado-perez/9781784706289

@Blessex

But why is self identifying as a black person considered socially unacceptable but self identifying as a woman is considered ‘inclusive and kind’. Even more weird to me given that sex self id can actually cause physical harm (sports, safe spaces etc)

But why is self identifying as a black person considered socially unacceptable...

That's not what Jesy Nelson did, though, so it is unfair to put her at the top if that is what your thread is about.

She has been accused by a former bandmate on the basis of her involvement in a music genre and video promotion.

I also think a PP has a point about Rita Ora, Ariana Grande etc. They have never claimed to be black and always been very honest about their origins. Rita Ora has made TV programmes about growing up in Kosovo. Just because people look at their skin tone and assume they are mixed-race, doesn't mean they are at fault surely? European people aren't exclusively lily-white, blue eyed and blonde.

I'm not convinced this is mainly about skin tone. Ora isn't actually particularly dark skinned. Even compared to many white Americans.

And she doesn't claim to be black, or mixed race, or anything like that.

I think people are looking at her, her make-up and hairstyle etc, and reading them as black cultural symbols. Is that accurate though, not entirely. Black women have been really influential in terms of what is seen as stylish and characteristic in that sector of pop culture. You could say the same thing about the music itself in what nowadays gets called "R&B"

But do we really want to have a hard divide between fashion and music that it's ok for certain races to wear or sing?

White women one way or another have always been the gatekeepers of womanhood.
I'm sure you're right.
I wonder if feminism is very different outside of the west, so, in fact, in most of the world.

I think people are looking at her, her make-up and hairstyle etc, and reading them as black cultural symbols. Is that accurate though, not entirely. Black women have been really influential in terms of what is seen as stylish and characteristic in that sector of pop culture. You could say the same thing about the music itself in what nowadays gets called "R&B"

But do we really want to have a hard divide between fashion and music that it's ok for certain races to wear or sing?

@LobsterNapkin I agree.

I also think where is the line between actual individuals being the influencers, rather than their race? Eg, Beyonce, Rihanna, Kanye West, Diddy, Whitney Houston, Mel B in the Spice Girls years. All of these people influence fans and admirers, and people who are not black may not necessarily recognise certain elements of their style as culturally black

I think things will become massively tricky if we truly start trying to police where influences have come from and who is allowed to wear/do/say/sing certain things. Music in particular has always fused influences from around the world, and it would be a huge shame to put a stop to that.

The thing with the entire discourse is it chucks Black women under the bus.
Why?

I'm not sure that we can make a comparison between Jesy and Ariana (as some are doing in the thread).

Ariana was called out for her black fishing but tbh, that was at the peak of her career and a time when people weren't listening to black voices. She had such a massive fanbase that it didn't really matter. She also has a lot of ties to black artists and her appreciation is pretty well known. Plus, I think she skates by on that Grande surname, people assume she's Latina.

Jesy...well, a very questionable exit from Little Mix and no build up of her own fanbase. She's more of an Iggy Azalea (who got hauled over the coals) than she is an Ariana. Then you also have Jesy tying herself to Nicki Minaj, with her rapist husband/ anti-vax drama etc etc. Nicki isn't as popular as she was. And the video Jesy made...it's all grills and black people moving to a predominantly white area and fucking shit up. That doesn't play well in a post-George Floyd world.

Jesy Nelson said that as she goes dark in the sun even her bandmates had queried whether she was part mixed. Apart from anything else you can't be 30years old singing about wanting a bad boy and since when was badness synonymous with blackness. That Jesy Nelson saga is a whole mess.

A total mess is right. I have to admit, I think that if any of the following happened:
a) the song was actually good
b) Jesy was better liked by the GP
c) she'd come out with this in 2019 or earlier

Then a lot of this wouldn't be happening. It became a perfect storm and Jesy and Nicki didn't handle it well.

Do you think it’s also because it is complex as an issue? There have always been cross over, trying out different cultures, combining cultures. Such as reggae and ska, rock and roll / blues, men dressing as women, women dressing as men, people ‘taking to their beds’ even though they didn’t have a disability. Maybe they are odd examples.

Some of this promotes communication and understanding across male/female, black/white. Some of this is exploitative, sometimes it’s almost like eradicating that part of the person to make it their own in a dominant way and hurts the part they are taking the trait from. Like a vampire!