‘Gender assigned at birth’

[DraintheBlood]

What’s the evidence base for this?

When school claim it’s from the NHS website then what do I counter that with so they comply with the ‘medically factual information and evidence base’ that the d of e updated guidance insists on?

I’ve sent ssa & tt links. Everything else is fixed but this is bs. It’s only something that’s addressed if other kids bring it up, but even then I think it matters that this is clear and in line with guidance and don’t want brushed of with passing the responsibility onto nhs website as if that’s enough.

Help please.

Ask them to send you the link to the correct page on the NHS website where it says that. They won’t be able to, because it doesn’t say that.

@Marelle

Ask them to send you the link to the correct page on the NHS website where it says that. They won’t be able to, because it doesn’t say that.

I'm afraid it does

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/trans-teenager/

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/pages/introduction.aspx

https://datadictionary.nhs.uk/attributes/genderidentityysameattbirth_indicator.html

Wtf?! That’s absolutely shocking! Following with interest because this needs addressing when even the NHS is giving false information.

It is, as PP note, on the NHS website in very specific categories.

In general, it's misleading as it's mostly used outside the context of those categories.

I just looked at the website out of curiosity and cannot believe my eyes!

"We now believe that gender identity is on a spectrum, with male at one end, female at the other and a "diversity" of gender identities in between. These can include male and female, non-binary or even agender (no gender)."

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/think-your-child-might-be-trans-or-non-binary/

The d of e guidance says it doesn’t recommend sources or check that they comply with guidelines, they are clear that’s schools responsibility. That’s in reference to the links to resources they provide but surely the same has to apply?

Just because the nhs website says something doesn’t mean there is an evidence base for it-sadly- and surely relying on an outside source, even nhs one, isn’t something schools should be doing if the guidance says they have to check everything complies to being medically factual information.

So any help. Ty.

OP I would email SSAUK or Baroness Nicholson about this specific point or see if @2fallsagain has some useful advice.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

OP I would email SSAUK or Baroness Nicholson about this specific point or see if *@2fallsagain* has some useful advice.

Thanks, will do this

"Gender identity" could be on a spectrum. Sex can't. People do tend to confuse them though.

I do wish they would stop saying that "gender is assigned at birth". It isn't. Sex is observed at birth (sometimes before birth via scans and screening). And gender and gender identity are not assigned but socially constructed, and not at that instant, but from then on

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

Still, if they're saying "gender assigned at birth", it's more accurate than the "sex assigned at birth" nonsense.

Sex is randomly decided at conception by whichever sperm cell is successful. Gender on the other hand is merely a social construct which often shows up as soon as the sex of a baby is known. So when relatives hear "it's a girl" and immediately start shopping for pink baby grows with "be kind" printed upon them, they are assigning gender norms onto this baby.

In many cases of course gender could be said to be "assigned before birth" when those awful 'gender reveal parties' with their pink/blue vomit-inducing tackiness are held.

@Alcemeg

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

There are many threads on here where you can explore the topic and understand the size of the population to which you refer. A population that, understandably, asks not to be brought into conversations/threads like this as a Gotcha/Whatabout/defence shield.

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

You may be right but surely in that case the term is being widely misused? Gender is only "assigned" in the (rare) cases where sex is ambiguous.

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

'Sex observed at birth' would be far more accurate and unambiguous.

allEmbarrassingHadrosaurus Oops sorry - I had no intention of dragging in whataboutery, especailly not for a vulnerable population.

I had to fill in a government form recently asking what gender identity I’d been assigned at birth. Not even just gender, gender identity.

I complained and informed the relevant senior person that none of the respondents would have had a midwife with a clipboard present at their birth assigning them a gender identity.

@DdraigGoch

Still, if they're saying "gender assigned at birth", it's more accurate than the "sex assigned at birth" nonsense.

Sex is randomly decided at conception by whichever sperm cell is successful. Gender on the other hand is merely a social construct which often shows up as soon as the sex of a baby is known. So when relatives hear "it's a girl" and immediately start shopping for pink baby grows with "be kind" printed upon them, they are assigning gender norms onto this baby.

In many cases of course gender could be said to be "assigned before birth" when those awful 'gender reveal parties' with their pink/blue vomit-inducing tackiness are held.

But transgender= people who identify with the opposite gender to which they are assigned at birth only makes sense for those who believe in gender ideology.

The d of e guidelines were updated to ensure that an ideology isn’t taught as fact and doesn’t take priority over science.

They could say transgender = people who identify with the opposite sex role stereotypes than the ones applied to the sex they are/sex they were observed at birth. That isn’t difficult to correct and is in line with guidance.

How can transgender = people who identify with the opposite gender they are assigned at birth not reinforce stereotypes or teach children they can be born in the wrong body?

@Alcemeg

I might be talking shit, but I think in a medical context "gender assigned at birth" has long been an accepted term - not because of gender fluidity, but because the physical sex of some babies can be ambiguous.

You're think of "sex assigned at birth" in the context of the past issues (in the UK at least, some countries still lack the right resources) where clinicians took a best guess at whether a baby with a DSD might be a boy or a girl. Medical science has moved on since when so that circumstance no longer applies, various scans and tests can diagnose the precise DSD.

Right, but the meaning there is not "gender identity" in the religious sense of gender activists, it is "belief about actual sex". Using the word "gender" just creates more confusion.

"Sex recorded at birth" would be fine, but that's not a synonym for sex, in the case where it turns out to be wrong due to a DSD. And using it any other context sense. It's always actual sex that really matters, not paperwork. No-one should be scuppered by an admin error, so we shouldn't be implying that you would be treated differently had an admin error been made.

And someone with a DSD-based incorrect sex record is not the same as a trans person.

Someone with an incorrect belief about their sex who finds out the truth later is totally different from someone with a correct belief about their sex who decides they want to "live as" the opposite sex (or even acquires an incorrect belief about their sex, in extremis).

[quote GoodieMoomin]I just looked at the website out of curiosity and cannot believe my eyes!

"We now believe that gender identity is on a spectrum, with male at one end, female at the other and a "diversity" of gender identities in between. These can include male and female, non-binary or even agender (no gender)."

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/think-your-child-might-be-trans-or-non-binary/[/quote]
Gender identity could be on a spectrum, though that is suggestive of it being based on a binary model, which seems regressive and unlikely.

Sex, as any fule kno, is bimodal.

You're think of "sex assigned at birth" in the context of the past issues (in the UK at least, some countries still lack the right resources) where clinicians took a best guess at whether a baby with a DSD might be a boy or a girl.

And more specifically the "assignment" was often in the form of some sort of "surgical correction" to make the genitals more "typical" for a sex.

You're right! See, I did say I might be talking shit! Texting on a very boring motorway.

Do they still do that "corrective" surgery to align genitals with the team's best guess?

@ArabellaScott but even if gender identity exists (I don't believe it does) they aren't male and female - those are sexes

Yes, exactly. It's all arbitrary.

Sex is assigned at conception. Sex is (usually) observed and recorded at birth. If not, blood tests are available to determine sex.

Gender doesn't come into it and shouldn't be used when discussing medical facts. There can't be an evidence base for gender being assigned at birth because it's simply impossible.