‘Gender assigned at birth’

[DraintheBlood]

What’s the evidence base for this?

When school claim it’s from the NHS website then what do I counter that with so they comply with the ‘medically factual information and evidence base’ that the d of e updated guidance insists on?

I’ve sent ssa & tt links. Everything else is fixed but this is bs. It’s only something that’s addressed if other kids bring it up, but even then I think it matters that this is clear and in line with guidance and don’t want brushed of with passing the responsibility onto nhs website as if that’s enough.

Help please.

@Peanutsandchilli

Sex is assigned at conception. Sex is (usually) observed and recorded at birth. If not, blood tests are available to determine sex.

Gender doesn't come into it and shouldn't be used when discussing medical facts. There can't be an evidence base for gender being assigned at birth because it's simply impossible.

But I need an air tight argument to prove this to school because they’ve said it’s from the nhs website as if that ensures it’s medically factual, and therefore complies with the d of e guidance.

But it doesn’t, and they are responsible for ensuring it does. So I need a way of making that clear without just reiterating the above.

Would citation [1] from this article by Maya Forstater be useful?

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n735/rr-0

@Marelle

Wtf?! That’s absolutely shocking! Following with interest because this needs addressing when even the NHS is giving false information.

It's unbelievably crap

I mean this bit on the nhs gender dysphoria page:

Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be.

Is just plain wrong. Biological sex isn't assigned at birth. As a pp said, it's determined at conception. It is observed.

even if gender identity exists (I don't believe it does) they aren't male and female - those are sexes

I saw someone making that point the other day - if you're going to invent a new way to classify people with 100s of possible boxes, it would be best to avoid confusion by not naming 2 of them with the same words as used for sex....

@Clymene

I mean this bit on the nhs gender dysphoria page:

Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be.

Is just plain wrong. Biological sex isn't assigned at birth. As a pp said, it's determined at conception. It is observed.

Could you link that exact page so I can forward it please?

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

OP I would email SSAUK or Baroness Nicholson about this specific point or see if *@2fallsagain* has some useful advice.

Do you have the baroness’ email? Is it just the conservatives for women one? I can’t see one just for the baroness by googling.

Have emailed ssa & sent a message here to the poster you mentioned.

Thanks.

Ridiculous and wrong. Doctors do not 'assign gender' at birth. Why would they be considering 'gender' at all? What they observe (not assign) is sex.

[quote Alcemeg]Would citation [1] from this article by Maya Forstater be useful?

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n735/rr-0[/quote]
I’ll keep this in mind, but I’m not sure school would be willing to accept this over their explanation that ‘it’s from the nhs so must meet the guidance’.

@lazylinguist

Ridiculous and wrong. Doctors do not 'assign gender' at birth. Why would they be considering 'gender' at all? What they observe (not assign) is sex.

As if they hand over a blue romper or a pink dress or yellow baby grow at birth.

I don’t see why it’s so hard for them to correct such a basic fact. They teach little kids, how are basic biological facts such a confusing concept to them they must quote the nhs and can’t write definitions that are inline with the d of e themselves?

If it helps, you will see those NHS pages were published in 2018 at the height of the GRA reform debacle and, particularly in the case of the second one, have long passed their review date. They should be retired.

Keywords like gender (when sex is meant) and 'assigned' always appear to be evidence of "controversial charity's Stonewall’s" lobbying.

This NHS link is more up to date publication wise and replaces an earlier, equally incoherent, genderist 2018 version, although even it now needs some revision due to the Keira Bell decisions.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

I would be interested to know what the school thinks 'gender' means and push them to define it.

I might say, "Sex refers to our male or female reproductive status and, in UK law under the Equality Act 2010, a woman is described as a female of any age and a man as a male of any age. Sex is determined at conception, can be observed in utero and is recorded at birth.

Deciding whether then to dress that newborn baby in pink or blue can only be one based on sex-based stereotypes around masculinity or femininity ie Gender. Surely Gender/sex-based stereotypes are harmful?

What does the school mean by Gender?

This is the page you need:
service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language

Sex

Sex is biological (male or female). It's based not only on the genes we inherit, but also on how our external and internal sex and reproductive organs work and respond to hormones. Sex is the label that's recorded when a baby's birth is registered.

We use "sex" or, better still, the body part associated with biological sex when we're writing about things like screening that is sex specific, for example, breast and cervical screening.

Sex assigned or registered at birth

We use the phrase "sex assigned at birth" when we're talking about trans health and gender dysphoria, as this is the language our audience uses. In other cases, we use "the sex someone was registered with at birth" because user research shows that most people understand this better as it refers to an actual event.

I would say (sorry if it sounds like "mansplaining") that sex is observed either before birth via scan or at birth, and that gender/gender identity is a social construct, decided by a person themself, depending of course, whether they believe in the concept of gender.

Yes, the service manual is effectively a style guide. And, just as the BBC's style guide was heavily influenced by Stonewall as we found from the Nolan podcasts, so too is this one activist/'audience' driven.

@ANewCreation

If it helps, you will see those NHS pages were published in 2018 at the height of the GRA reform debacle and, particularly in the case of the second one, have long passed their review date. They should be retired.

Keywords like gender (when sex is meant) and 'assigned' always appear to be evidence of "controversial charity's Stonewall’s" lobbying.

This NHS link is more up to date publication wise and replaces an earlier, equally incoherent, genderist 2018 version, although even it now needs some revision due to the Keira Bell decisions.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

I would be interested to know what the school thinks 'gender' means and push them to define it.

I might say, "Sex refers to our male or female reproductive status and, in UK law under the Equality Act 2010, a woman is described as a female of any age and a man as a male of any age. Sex is determined at conception, can be observed in utero and is recorded at birth.

Deciding whether then to dress that newborn baby in pink or blue can only be one based on sex-based stereotypes around masculinity or femininity ie Gender. Surely Gender/sex-based stereotypes are harmful?

What does the school mean by Gender?

I appreciate the link and will keep a record of it. But I don’t see anything that says transgender does not equal identifying with the opposite gender than assigned at birth. Which is what they claim the nhs site says about definition.

I started off arguing with them by asking for definitions of words used and how they meet the guidance. I don’t think I can keep on that track now they are passing it off to senior lead and saying sorry it’s half term.

I think I need something that clearly explains how the definition they’ve given breeches guidance. I’ve sent ssa & tt links already, while they agree it doesn’t appear to fully click, judging by this definition which breeches guidance. And I expect they think they’d cooperated enough already, as if following the d of e guidance is something they only have to do half way and slip off accountability by passing the buck to the nhs site.

I know they are incredibly busy and go over and above, especially for my kids, are sound irritated to have me at them again. But I just don’t think it’s a hard concept to teach accurate facts about basic biological concepts, as the guidance dictates they should. And I’m loosing patience as I’m sure they are also.

It feels like arguing it’s important to teach 2+2 = 4 accurately or that they shouldn’t be using the language of creationism when teaching evolution. And I have very low tolerance for repeatedly explaining this, it’s not my strong point at all. I can easily tell anyone what I think about gender ideology or safeguarding or schools follow d of e guidance, but I feel like I’m dangerously close to screaming that it’s not fucking rocket science and to stop being so fucking dense.

Which doesn’t help and isn’t fair, because mostly they are great at listening and go over and above.

Hence why I need help to address this without jumping to formal complaints and copying in ofsted. Because I don’t think that’s the best way to handle a school that tries to work with parents, but I don’t know a more effective way to address this when calm, unemotional and patient communication is not my strong point.

It's this page @DraintheBlood: www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/pages/introduction.aspx

As @ANewCreation says though, this is an old page written in 2016. It says next review was due 2019.

And realistically I don’t have the energy to go down that route either. Although I’ll fucking scrap it up from somewhere if I have to.

I’ll consider it training for addressing this in secondary schools.

@DraintheBlood

And realistically I don’t have the energy to go down that route either. Although I’ll fucking scrap it up from somewhere if I have to.

I’ll consider it training for addressing this in secondary schools.

The link pp posted is the update I think. I just can’t see where it corrects transgender does not equal identifying with the opposite gender to that assigned at birth.

But ty for your patience with me. I really do appreciate all input, even if I appear oppositional.

@sultanasofa

This is the page you need: service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language

Sex

Sex is biological (male or female). It's based not only on the genes we inherit, but also on how our external and internal sex and reproductive organs work and respond to hormones. Sex is the label that's recorded when a baby's birth is registered.

We use "sex" or, better still, the body part associated with biological sex when we're writing about things like screening that is sex specific, for example, breast and cervical screening.

Sex assigned or registered at birth

We use the phrase "sex assigned at birth" when we're talking about trans health and gender dysphoria, as this is the language our audience uses. In other cases, we use "the sex someone was registered with at birth" because user research shows that most people understand this better as it refers to an actual event.

But this is the definition that is out of line with the d of e guidance to teach medical facts that are based on scientific evidence, and not to teach children can be born in the wrong body.

Like pp said nhs have been stonewalled.

And d of e guidance says schools are responsible for checking sources comply with guidance. So school saying nhs= must be medical fact matters not a fuck. Because it still breaches the guidance. And schools must follow the d of e guidance.

So I need help to explain that which will counter their ‘but it’s nhs’ response.

And apologies to all for fucking typos. My children don’t sleep because of their disabilities so neither do I.

The following sentence from the NHS style guide is worthy of note:
'We use the phrase "sex assigned at birth" when we're talking about trans health and gender dysphoria'
because it is clear that only when talking to a trans audience about trans health do they recommend using this language. It suggests that when talking about the general population, this language should not be used.

I don't know in what context the school are using 'gender assigned at birth', but unless it is being used in the context of talking about the trans population, I would suggest this is not in line with the NHS style guide.

@lazylinguist

Ridiculous and wrong. Doctors do not 'assign gender' at birth. Why would they be considering 'gender' at all? What they observe (not assign) is sex.

I am presuming the idea is that sex is observed and then in a subtle consequence contributed to by family and society, a 'gender' is 'assigned' according to that sex. Meaning that if it's a male then boy will be dressed in blue and stereotypes applied.

There is plenty of evidence that people treat babies differently according to their sex, so there is a kernel of truth in the idea that gender is taught/conditioned/applied from birth. But a baby certainly has no 'gender identity' or concept of gender.

Sex is not ever 'assigned'. That is rubbish.

@sultanasofa

The following sentence from the NHS style guide is worthy of note: 'We use the phrase "sex assigned at birth" when we're talking about trans health and gender dysphoria' because it is clear that only when talking to a trans audience about trans health do they recommend using this language. It suggests that when talking about the general population, this language should not be used.

I don't know in what context the school are using 'gender assigned at birth', but unless it is being used in the context of talking about the trans population, I would suggest this is not in line with the NHS style guide.

It’s in their definition of transgender, so is about transgender people, but it’s a primary school so teaching to all pupils, none of whom are trans. Because why would 10 year olds believe they are transgender unless school introduces the explanation that they can be assigned boy or girl at birth and that might not be how they identify. Which is teaching kids they can be born in the wrong body surely?

I need an air tight argument to prove this to school because they’ve said it’s from the nhs website as if that ensures it’s medically factual, and therefore complies with the d of e guidance

There might not be an airtight argument. You could say that it comes from NHS guidance that's specifically about gender reassignment and not about sex or gender in general, so they're using it out of context? And using it out of context could cause confusion / misunderstanding / offence?

And it's not just the risk of children wanting to transition. This might not apply at primary school but sex education needs to be about sex and the message that gender matters more than sex puts girls at risk. Who wants young people to believe that if they both identify as women they don't need contraception at all, or for a young girl to be having sex with a male-bodied but female-identified partner who finds it too upsetting to use condoms because condoms are for men?

So either everyone accepts that men and women, male and female, normally refers to sex not gender, or else educators need to do to men what's already been done to women/girls and stop talking about men/boys altogether in favour of people with penises - "people with penises need to put something on the end of it" (ahem , Jezza moment). I know which I'd choose but maybe it's too late and the gender genie can't go back in the bottle.