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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harrop MPTS Hearing

986 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2021 16:18

I thought this may be of interest:

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-adrian-harrop-nov-21

The tribunal will inquire into the allegation that from 10 May 2018 to 23 November 2019, Dr Harrop inappropriately used his Twitter account to post tweets that were offensive and/or insulting and/or inappropriate in nature and some of which were intended to intimidate.

OP posts:
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Motorina · 16/11/2021 17:11

@Signalbox no worries at all. I reserve the right to be wrong, mind. It's confusing enough when you're there, let alone at a distance!

Motorina · 16/11/2021 17:23

Sorry, many posts in a row!

There's an old saying (someone I'm sure will know the source...)

If you're weak on the facts and strong on the law, pound the law. If you're weak on the law and strong on the facts, pound the facts

Right now, Harrop's team are arguing the law so hard they haven't even bothered to question the witnesses. I certainly think that's telling.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 16/11/2021 17:25

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I sincerely hope he is turning up in that satin suit he's wearing in the Mail article.

That's a pretty offensive starter for 10.

🎼 Shites in mauve satin...🎵🎶
FannyCann · 16/11/2021 17:42

The chair has made it clear that they have no questions for B, D or E. This is actually a good sign - it suggests that the panel doesn't have any matters about their evidence that they wish to clarify.

I know they won't, but it would be rather a nice touch to question C to explain the golf club jokes. WinkGrin

BoreOfWhabylon · 16/11/2021 18:18

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

🎼 Shites in mauve satin...🎵🎶

Grin Grin Grin

Terfasaurus · 16/11/2021 18:24

Harrop’s team seem desperate for the witnesses not to speak.

azimuth299 · 16/11/2021 18:49

@nauticant

The apparent understanding of social media by those in authority can mask some surprising misunderstandings RedDogsBeg.

I recall one case where the judge, coming across as being perfectly sensible, made a comment suggesting that twitter works by someone's tweets only being visible to a recipient and to the sender's followers.

They should know this stuff, it's awful. I was once observing a trial for possession of CSAM, when halfway through the judge asked what a Google search was Shock FFS they shouldn't be allowed to judge these cases if they have no understanding of the internet! The defendant claimed that the images accidentally downloaded onto his computer while he was browsing a recipe website, and that he must have been hacked. He got away with it Confused
ItsLittoralViolins · 16/11/2021 18:54

@Motorina, is the test applied by the Tribunal whether the person on the Clapham Omnimus would find a tweet offensive per se; or whether they would find it offensive coming from a doctor (especially one who clearly presents himself as a doctor on the platform)?

I hope that questions makes sense.

ItsLittoralViolins · 16/11/2021 18:59

The CPS and the GMC barristers really need to get their shit together explaining to judges and juries how the internet works as part of case presentation.

Funny how judges have managed to be trained by Gendered Intelligence in 'gender identity theory' (which we now know a little of, thanks to Maya); but yet many are still not up to speed on the basic workings of social media.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 16/11/2021 19:30

@ItsLittoralViolins

The CPS and the GMC barristers really need to get their shit together explaining to judges and juries how the internet works as part of case presentation.

Funny how judges have managed to be trained by Gendered Intelligence in 'gender identity theory' (which we now know a little of, thanks to Maya); but yet many are still not up to speed on the basic workings of social media.

It's not just a UK problem.

If you didn't think it was possible to feel sorry for Mark Zuckerberg, watch

Personwithrage · 16/11/2021 21:02

@ItsLittoralViolins one would hope the latter, as they should be judged in relation to their code of conduct which states they should be protecting the public's perception of their profession. What's the point of a code of conduct if that's not how they're measured?

How any of this, any single bit of it, doesn't go far beyond breaching those standards is impossible to understand.

ItsLittoralViolins · 16/11/2021 21:45

@Personwithrage, thanks, that's my inference too. The tweets should be judged 'objectively' against the Code of Conduct (or bearing in mind the Code of Conduct at the very least).

AlecTrevelyan006 · 16/11/2021 21:51
Redshoeblueshoe · 16/11/2021 22:21

🎼 shites in mauve satin 🎶🎵🎶 Grin genius

NotTerfNorCis · 16/11/2021 22:39

Read the Mail article with interest. So Harrop's support of 'C' has landed him in trouble. Good. Also interesting that senior medics had spoken to him about his Twitter usage but he refused to stop.

Motorina · 16/11/2021 22:43

[quote ItsLittoralViolins]@Personwithrage, thanks, that's my inference too. The tweets should be judged 'objectively' against the Code of Conduct (or bearing in mind the Code of Conduct at the very least).[/quote]
It's kind of both, I suspect. It's a multistage process. You'll see references to stage one and stage two. Stage one is a factual stage - were these things which are alledged done. Stage two is misconduct, impairment and sanction - has he breached the code and, if he has, what do we do about it.

It will depend a bit on how the lawyers argue it. But this is what I would expect.

First off, it will be decided whether, as a matter of fact, the tweets were objectively inappropriate, threatening, etc. Depending on what the charges say. I would expect the tweets to speak for themselves, here. Having your personal details and work address published, for example, is no more or less threatening because of the profession of the person publishing them. There are some times when it might be more threatening (if a known arsonist threatens to burn your house down then that's more threatening than if a six year old does) but generally something is threatening or not, almost regardless of who utters it.

It's not impossible that the lawers may try and argue that some of the tweets, whilst not inherently inappropriate, became so because they were posted by a doctor. Or they might simply argue they were inappropriate full stop. Hard to know without being there. But, in either event, it's really a factual decision about what he did,

If it is decided the facts are proved, the next decision will be 'does posting these threatening tweets amount to misconduct?'. That's where the code of conduct comes in. Misconduct is defined as a serious departure from standards which would be considered deplorable by members of the profession. That's a judgement call which the panel will have to make, and they make it in reference both to published standards but also the expectations of the profession.

If it is decided that the facts found proved were misconduct, then the next stage is deciding if his fitness to practice is currently impaired by his misconduct. Misconduct was what happened then. Impairment is the situation now.

Then the final decision is what to do about it. That's sanction.

To go back to my cake analogy:

Findings of fact are, "Last month, someone bought a yummy cake into work and you ate six slices."

Misconduct is "Eating six slices of yummy cake is a bad thing to do. It will make you fat and deprive other people of yummy cake. Your colleages would be shocked to know you vanished the cake!"

Impairment comes in two forms. It's either "If another yummy cake appears in the staff room today, are you at risk of scoffing the lot?" This is where insight and remorse comes in. If the penny has dropped that eating all the cake is inherently selfish, and leads to gastric distress, then you might be less likely to do so again.

Or it's "Scoffing all the cake was so wicked that, even though we are sure you won't do it again, we have to sanction you to make it clear to the rest of the office how unacceptable it is".

Sanction is "You are banned from the office to stop you eating the next cake."

Sorry, that's a lawyer's answer, using many words where only a few would do Wink

ItsLittoralViolins · 16/11/2021 23:26

Thanks, @Motorina, that's a very helpful explanation. I do appreciate all your time on this thread and your expertise.

Signalbox · 16/11/2021 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Terfasaurus · 16/11/2021 23:31

As Harrop is denying many of his posts are inappropriate, it won’t play well for him if the tribunal decides otherwise.

It’s like saying it was fine to eat all the cake because I hadn’t had breakfast and my blood sugar was low, but next time I’ll eat breakfast and not be tempted. And anyway. I only had 3 slices not 6. So it’s not that bad.

ItsLittoralViolins · 16/11/2021 23:40

I think my analogy would be AH saying, 'it doesn't matter how much cake I eat, because my reasons for wanting it are special and the others' reasons aren't.'

Signalbox · 16/11/2021 23:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EyesOpening · 17/11/2021 00:23

I ate all the cake to stop the others getting gastric distress, I was doing it for the greater good, I see that as my job.

nettie434 · 17/11/2021 00:36

@NotTerfNorCis

Read the Mail article with interest. So Harrop's support of 'C' has landed him in trouble. Good. Also interesting that senior medics had spoken to him about his Twitter usage but he refused to stop.
I also remember tweets from another Twitter doctor who is comparatively young, tweets quite personal stuff, has a rainbow in his profile and is very out warning him that he should stop.

A wise person would have seen this as very clear advice.

FindTheTruth · 17/11/2021 05:52

Harrop and his tweets on "micro-dosing" females who identify as non-binary with testosterone.

does anyone have screenshots?

JustcameoutGC · 17/11/2021 06:31

My favourite version of this is where he is advised by his legal team he is fucked, that his only way out is to show true remorse and attrition. He then grovels, badly. Which pisses the judges off even more and they increase the length of suspension.
I hope they have one of those people who draw court room pictures there. I reckon they would be priceless.