How do people think you can change sex?

[CuriousBogInTheNight]

I've obviy not followed closely enough but genuinely how has it become controversial to say you cannot change sex?! Sex is encoded from the moment of conception... Are people thick or have they tried to change the meaning of the word sex?

Thanks Jay. I'm a cradle Catholic and sometimes wonder if I wasn't brought up in the faith, would I believe? Possibly not as in every other area of my life, I like evidence. It's a funny one.

@LastSummerHere me too. Lapsed at the moment and find these difficult questions to answer. I often liken it to loving somebody - how do you know you love them? It’s the same sort of feeling - you can’t explain it in exact terms but it’s there. But our beliefs have no impact upon others so I don’t feel I need to justify them - if they did have an impact then I would.

[quote NecessaryScene]Great new interview by Helen Joyce just up, and there's a lot in there about how we got here, with a segment on how many children are ending up believing they can change sex.

theelectricagora.com/2021/10/15/helen-joyce-on-her-new-book-trans-when-ideology-meets-reality/[/quote]
I like her phrase ' thought stopping mantras '. Of course it must be lovely to use a mantra to still the mind. Just not to kill the brain.

I think people know that "sex change" surgery exists, but they don't realise just how little these surgeries actually achieve, and at what cost. For example, most people are not aware that:
When a female has a "sex change", their new "penis" will only become erect by them manually pumping it up with a device which will be attached in the area where the testicles would be. They will not ejaculate or produce sperm. It may not be possible to urinate through the penis, deoending on type of surgery.

1. When a male has a "sex change", their new "vagina" will require careful maintenance to prevent it from closing up or going septic and killing them. For the rest of their life the will need to regularly insert a prosthetic device into the vagina to prevent it from closing up - just like if someone with pierced ears stops wearing earrings. They will need to regularly wash out the vagina internally, perhaps by inserting a cleaning device. The vagina will not self-lubricate or self-clean. They will not have ovaries, produce eggs, have periods or get pregnant.
2. Whether male or female, they will need to continue taking cross-sex hormones for thd rest of their life. Their body cannot be made to produce these hormones independently. Over time, these hormones will increase their risk of wider health complications, as their body is not designed to cope with these hormones.

Most people don't know this stuff. I think it should be taught in schools

The trans man Scott Newgent is very clear about these issues, and is strongly opposed to minors being medically transitioned because of this. It’s not just the hormones and the fact that the surgery cannot actually replicate the opposite sex characteristics, but also that the surgery itself can cause complications and damage to the body that has to then be fixed with more and more surgery and treatment.

It’s not a good life choice for a young person who could well resolve their feelings of unhappiness about their body, especially at the changes of puberty. Feelings like that are so common and normal and most people do get over them.

nauticant

"An excellent counter. How did it go down?"

Not well, pretty much as I expected, accusations of transphobia, being really cruel.
Life and biology are really cruel.

I was thinking optimistically but I'm completely unsurprised. Still, there's amusement to be had in triggering cognitive dissonance and watching the anger that causes as they struggle with the resulting internal conflict.

@sharksarecool
thank you for that, with all the abstraction about the subject, that is a good post to see.

@cocomump so add something here? Can you, no...

Anyone can be anything they believe to be just so. We will be laughed at in decades to come for even entertaining a debate on it. But not before it reaches a horrific pinnacle.

cocomump

"I had no idea mumsnet was like this. This is a cesspool of ignorance and transphobia. Good luck with your echo chamber, my mind boggles."

Maybe read the whole thread, which is informative and intelligent, rather than posting an insulting soundbite.

[quote Glassofshloer]**@LastSummerHere* me too. Lapsed at the moment and find these difficult questions to answer. I often liken it to loving somebody - how do you know you love them? It’s the same sort of feeling - you can’t explain it in exact terms but it’s there. But our beliefs have no impact upon others so I don’t feel I need* to justify them - if they did have an impact then I would.[/quote]

Yes that's true. Maybe that's why I find it difficult to comprehend why these people are so pushy and forceful with their beliefs if they truly hold them dear to heart...it matters nought if others believe UNLESS it isn't really about the belief but the motives and agenda behind it.

And yes, love...I love Jesus and it's a feeling I have inside me that I would feel for my family. I do feel weird and contradictory as a GC woman who thinks gendered souls are absolutely ridiculous AND also be a practicing Catholic - everyone pointing out the absurdity of it well I honestly can't say they're wrong - but I love Him. It's as simple as that, really.

and lets reintroduce barbie kardashian to the debate:

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-teen-charged-with-making-death-threats-against-two-individuals/

this crap is just beyond unacceptable.

@Skinnymuffins

My understanding is that your sex is the body you're born with but your gender is what some believe to be socially constructed based on the sex your body has been assigned.

Therefore you can change your gender quite easily and you can change the appearance of the most predominant sex organs, but actually changing sex? I'm unsure. Even if you had your uterus removed etc your sex is sex is the body that you're scientifically born with?

You are unsure if humans can change sex? Really?

@cocomump

I had no idea mumsnet was like this. This is a cesspool of ignorance and transphobia. Good luck with your echo chamber, my mind boggles.

Please do point out the ignorance and transphobia, @cocomump.

I can only imagine the mental gymnastics performed by an intelligent person, who has persuaded themselves that humans (or for that matter, any mammal) can change sex.
On the other hand, how many of them actually believe it, or are simply recanting it as you would the Apostles' Creed on a Sunday morning.

@cocomump

Yeah it's the clownfish thing, 100%. You hit the nail on the head.

Jesus Christ.

Yes, because humans are the same as clownfish.

The ignorance in your post, @cocomump, is astounding.

Jesus Christ.

Its a variying combination of poor knowledge or understanding of Biology, the idea that being gay is to do with maternal hormones combined with 'born in the wrong body' narative, pink and blue brains (well women are totally different from men and unfathomable so who knows right?, obvs nothing is examined to closely, everything is accepted on face value with details never explained or asked for). Also the fact most people dont know, or want to know about trans people, so they will happily accept what the noisy person shouting 'bigot!' infront of them is saying.

You're mocking the 'clownfish thing' Cocomump but it is a fact that this has been used a number of times to justify people changing sex. YOU think it is ridiculous, well so do we. Imagine having to counter these ridiculous 'arguments'. Margaret Atwood even mentioned slugs ffs.

We have seen a number of different justifications, with some overlap.
Some think brain sex exists, but there's no need to actually test for it before accepting someone is trans.
Some think physical sex exists on a spectrum, but there is no need to be somewhere in the middle of the spectrum to be trans.
Some people think genital surgery makes a person the opposite sex, but there is no need to increase the 5% of trans people who have this surgery (I wouldn't wish it on anyone personally).
Some people believe trans identity is obvious in childhood but there is no need for someone to be gender non-conforming as a child to be trans.
Some people believe non-binary identities are real, additional sexes or genders and should be respected as such, but there is no need to increase facilities to incorporate third, fourth, fifth spaces.
Some people believe trans-ness sits in the same family as sexual orientation, hence LGB+T, but there's no need to respect sexualities based on attraction to a particular physical sex.

I could go on, but it's obvious the cognitive dissonance caused by holding such conflicting views just causes anger and frustration. None of the above makes any actual sense, and if I was wedded to these beliefs I'd feel persecuted when people pointed out they are nonsense.

People generally change their gender, not sex

@LastSummerHere

You're mocking the 'clownfish thing' Cocomump but it is a fact that this has been used a number of times to justify people changing sex. YOU think it is ridiculous, well so do we. Imagine having to counter these ridiculous 'arguments'. Margaret Atwood even mentioned slugs ffs.

Exactly. They clearly try to memory hole it now but circa 2018 it was a big talking point with endless visitors to the feminism board trying to imply that the existence of Clownfish means that humans can change sex.

We had an amazing poster here called bowlofbabelfish who was a scientist and she spent hours calmly and precisely debunking the never-ending flow of nonsense. Hope she is still around somewhere, I miss her posts.

I'm very much looking forward to having Cocomump's evidence shown to us. Jolly good

@groundhogdaycherry

People generally change their gender, not sex

That isn't consistent though, men are claiming the word "female" and claiming to have a cervix.

@sharksarecool

I think people know that "sex change" surgery exists, but they don't realise just how little these surgeries actually achieve, and at what cost. For example, most people are not aware that: When a female has a "sex change", their new "penis" will only become erect by them manually pumping it up with a device which will be attached in the area where the testicles would be. They will not ejaculate or produce sperm. It may not be possible to urinate through the penis, deoending on type of surgery.

1. When a male has a "sex change", their new "vagina" will require careful maintenance to prevent it from closing up or going septic and killing them. For the rest of their life the will need to regularly insert a prosthetic device into the vagina to prevent it from closing up - just like if someone with pierced ears stops wearing earrings. They will need to regularly wash out the vagina internally, perhaps by inserting a cleaning device. The vagina will not self-lubricate or self-clean. They will not have ovaries, produce eggs, have periods or get pregnant.
2. Whether male or female, they will need to continue taking cross-sex hormones for thd rest of their life. Their body cannot be made to produce these hormones independently. Over time, these hormones will increase their risk of wider health complications, as their body is not designed to cope with these hormones.

Most people don't know this stuff. I think it should be taught in schools

Excellent points.

I'd add that (fortunately) hardly any trans people actually have sexual reassignment surgery, and in the UK that's not just because the NHS has very limited capacity to provide it. In some cases they are medically advised against it. An older male person is highly likely to have some heart problems. Undergoing major surgery means hours under general anaesthetic which is life-threatening in itself.

In most cases, though, I would imagine males are not keen to risk losing their sexual function. Not many adults who've had a sex life would want that, surely.

In the case of the young females who have this surgery, they're either being badly misled about the likely outcomes, or they're so unhappy with their female body that they'll do anything to change it. Or both. In the latter case, how anybody can argue that surgery is the answer to what is clearly a psychological issue is beyond me.

@CuriousBogInTheNight

I've obviy not followed closely enough but genuinely how has it become controversial to say you cannot change sex?! Sex is encoded from the moment of conception... Are people thick or have they tried to change the meaning of the word sex?

"Sex change" was a term once frowned upon by patients of gender identity clinics. It was a sensationalist term used by the tabloid press. Those undergoing treatment for gender disphoria were merely trying to correct their bodies to match their gender identity. Sex is so much more than chromosomes, otherwise there would not be intersex conditions.

Sex is so much more than chromosomes, otherwise we wouldn't have intersex conditions

Whoo we've got a bingo here! 🎉