How do people think you can change sex?

[CuriousBogInTheNight]

I've obviy not followed closely enough but genuinely how has it become controversial to say you cannot change sex?! Sex is encoded from the moment of conception... Are people thick or have they tried to change the meaning of the word sex?

I often ponder on what, if it were true, sex being a spectrum would prove, or imply and what effect it has.

If it is a spectrum, where do I fall on it? Am I more female than some of you (female yous)? How would that be measured? Am I less female than some male people? Is it my mathematics qualifications that make me more male? Or my ineptitude at housework? If I'm less female, how did I manage to give birth? Or is it measured in the amount of children I've had?
So many questions, so few answers.

Isn’t it also true that cross-sex hormones have deleterious effects on the body because it’s still designed to work with the right hormones - thereby causing health issues? Which would suggest the hormones don’t actually induce the endocrine system of the opposite sex at all.

Also kids believing you can really, fully change sex because what schools are teaching is appalling. What a massive failing of the education system when we’re always banging on about STEM and investing in our scientific future and improving education - let alone the lie it’s selling to children that they can really be the opposite sex and the awful harmful outcomes that leads to. Just shocking.

until you can pull every XY chromosome from every nucleated cell in the human body and replace it with XX chromosome which currently is beyond possible and will be in the near/distant future; then you are as female or male as your brain conjures up, you are your state of mind, but you are not anything else, only your mind. I don't consider myself female, I just am. Considering multiple issues of the mind believing things that don't fit well into society, it has to be managed. Where does that leave us? It leaves us in an impossible position that despite the biology; anything that anyone's mind believes should be accepted. Because the mind trumps the biology.

So I have a person close to me, who is a paranoid schizophrenic; for over a year now they have a belief that not immediately dangerous (more so to themselves) is slowly gathering momentum. But it is so dangerous to let self-belief and self-determination skip on for anyone who wants to avail of it. If I speak to this person; what is any different from them having a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia and refusing this well meant conversation; to somebody who has a genetic 'predisposition' to being a female and refusing it also. One is immensely more dangerous, and one is a slow-burn. It doesn't even for me skip slightly into the wormhole of females looking for their own places. That is the concrete argument, which I am wholly behind. It is more than that. It is like a drug state, I could be anything I want to be tomorrow morning and nobody can say ANYTHING to me because it's all in the mind and not the biology.

I have always let my kids alone on the religion front, they get to decide, but not on this, they are younger than the current market and I have no shame in fully educating them on the current failings in society.

Simple it's a c*t and as in all cts children are indoctrated from age 4+ (in Scotland) and adults are bullied, threatened and intimated into silence by the rabid TRAs whilst stonewall sneaks in behind the scenes misrepresenting the law and enforcing the new religion whilst decrying anyone who says hold on a minute as a bigot and a trf or as David Lammy put it "rights hoarding dinosaurs "🦖

”Yup, many young people do believe you can literally change sex. And then perform all the biological functions of that sex.”
- If this is true, then it really does undermine the argument that teenagers are mature enough to give informed consent to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

Very good point, Motorina. It’s sickening that teenagers — children basically, who have been deliberately misled and misinformed by people they were taught to trust — can be given responsibility for irreversible damage to their bodies.

Gender - you can absolutely change though.

How do I change the gender that other people project onto me so that I can avoid being oppressed as a result of my sex?

People push gender onto me without my consent so how can I stop that from happening without first buying into the idea that this tool that's being used to oppress me is something innate within me and not simply a sexist heap of outdated stereotypes?

Perhaps this is just me but my take is
Biological sex be it xx xy xxy or whatever can not be changed in humans, gender is what you ‘say you are’ or identify as- sexuality is who you are attracted to in a romantic or sexual way - those are the terms that I understand.

The default being xx woman xy man for all things and most people identifying as heterosexual (some identifying as homosexual or whatever )

Or am I making it too simple?

Some species can change sex eg clown fish. Just like in some species the male gives birth eg seahorse

But we can’t

I had no idea mumsnet was like this. This is a cesspool of ignorance and transphobia. Good luck with your echo chamber, my mind boggles.

This argument is a bit of a semantic thing.

If you define sex purely chromosomally, then it is impossible-full stop.

But, if you define it physically (external genitalia), and by circulating hormones and secondary sexual characteristics, you can get most of the way there, and I am sure we will improve this as time passes (if we keep going down this road).

What is far harder to understand (for me) is the idea that you are ‘in the wrong body’. It does feel like people with a limb that is ‘not theirs’.
On the other hand, if amputation makes them happier, why not…

However, people who claim that they are the other ‘sex’ just by feeling that way, and do not want to take any of the (fairly extreme) steps to change their bodies (hormones and surgery) do seem to …ummm…trying to achieve something different.

Born in the wrong body is a phrase many gender ideologists now say was only ever used to approximate to c*s people what it feels like to be trans. Mermaids no longer uses it, for example. My problem with it is that it suggests that the brain and the body are two different things. They're not. The brain is an organ of the body just like the heart or the liver. What they seem to mean by brain is more akin to a soul or personality. Feeling at odds with one's appearance and/or bodily functions is common and arises from social pressures and psychological issues.

Sex is about the role you would play in procreation if you procreated.

Well over 80% of the population are fertile and of the remaining 20%, I doubt any are unclear as to whether they would be seeking to inseminate or gestate should any infertility issues be resolved and they want to procreate.

Gender fluid people do not use different types of contraception (those for males or females) on different days, in line with their identity.

A sorting hat is not needed to work out which cross sex hormones should be prescribed to those wanting to 'physically transition'. Observing their sex suffices.

Sex really is binary and not difficult to determine. There can be / are differences and anomalies between people within each of the two categories, but this doesn't sit those people outside of being one of the two categories.

Where there is a legitimate reason to segregate people on the basis of sex / sexed bodies, it makes no sense to then determine 'entry' by identity or any other criteria than sexed body.

This all boils down to some groups wanting to uphold having sex segregated spaces but for access to be determined by identity. They do not want identity based spaces, or no segregation at all.
They also know they will get nowhere by admitting that they want spaces to be, on principle, segregated by one set of criteria but for access to be determined by a different set. Therefore, they resort to trying to 'queer' sex categories.

If they really thought sex was so individualised and non binary, they would focus on challenging the legitimacy of sex based spaces. This is where there are conflicting interests within the trans community between mtf and ftm and those who are 'non binary'

had no idea mumsnet was like this. This is a cesspool of ignorance and transphobia. Good luck with your echo chamber, my mind boggles

What echo chamber is that?
What is it that makes your mind boggle and what do you find transphobic?
Is it that we don't think human beings are like clownfish?
Is it that we agree with every eminent scientist in the world that it is physically impossible to change the sex of a human being?
Is it that we believe some people are unhappy as they are and with the way society perceives them and that they should be allowed to choose to live differently?

What is it?

@SecretHarpy

I've seen lots of people who truly believe that a neovaginia is exactly the same as vagina. (If not superior as it's a 'designer vagina') so therefore this just means that people can change sex

We’ve had women post once to tell us that it feels no different as they have touched their friend’s after surgery.

Now… I am sure any one reading will be able to understand the incredulity that was mentioned at that account, particularly since the poster’s end goal seemed to be to shame people posting on MN as being hateful for pointing out there is a difference. I believe it was a thread about consent and whether a person should rightfully expect to know if the vagina they are expecting to put their penis in was a vagina vs a neo-vagina.

Yeah it's the clownfish thing, 100%. You hit the nail on the head.

Jesus Christ.

@cocomump

I had no idea mumsnet was like this. This is a cesspool of ignorance and transphobia. Good luck with your echo chamber, my mind boggles.

Oh dear. Please report anything that you feel is transphobic.

Maybe you could address the question of the thread since you took the time to visit this part of the board from the actual echo chamber you seem to exist in. But nice bit of projection there by the way… I would suggest reading a dictionary as well as a biology text for future reference though.

A sorting hat is not needed to work out which cross sex hormones should be prescribed to those wanting to 'physically transition'. Observing their sex suffices.

That's a very good point.

And I am looking forward to the links you provide on this thread coco to support that people can change sex at cellular level. And please don’t politicise people’s medical conditions in doing so.

Yeah it's the clownfish thing, 100%. You hit the nail on the head.

Jesus Christ.

So do you think human beings can change sex? Would you care to explain?

Poor Lord Winston, he must feel like banging his head on the desk. He’s devoted his life to studying fertility and pregnancy - where only a healthy female and male gamete can create a baby… even if it’s in a test tube, you can’t get more binary than that.

He also treats and researches conditions where a woman can only carry a baby of one sex. Deals with genetic conditions in babies which only affect one sex. Knows that women’s physiology is different to men’s in their immunology, blood coagulation, how they present with a heart attack etc etc. It’s coded in every cell. Remodelling a few body parts on the outside or taking exogenous hormones will do nothing, absolutely nothing, to change the mechanism of sexual reproduction which is the only way that mammals reproduce outside of a cloning lab.

It is complete nonsense to suggest otherwise. If people want to believe in gender then that’s their choice.

I'm a practicing Catholic and 100% believe in the presence of the Lord in the Eucharist. I have an unshakable belief in this. It is absolutely faith based and I completely get why people think it is illogical...it is. I suppose the one difference for me is that transubstantiation is an act of GOD. The miracle worker. The Creator.

And this is a universe away from woman hating, seedy men declaring they have now changed into women. These same men couldn't change a lightbulb ffs.

For people who don't believe in sex, I think it is as simple as men have demanded we don't, and so we comply. What men want, they get. And we have been conditioned to believe that men are the leaders and we must follow. They expect it too...which is why women who have said HELL NO to the mad gender cult are their mortal enemy.

More to the point @LastSummerHere your belief in God and transubstantiation doesn’t a) have a dangerous impact on women’s rights b) require other people to say they believe in it in order to keep their jobs & avoid death/rape threats.

People can believe what they like as long as it doesn’t infringe upon others.

Good for you, LastSummer. Your belief system is your way of making sense of the world. Spiritual beliefs are no aberration when they are so pervasive in human evolution. There is a clear evolutionary purpose to having them.

For my part, up yours Chesterton, some of us never started believing. I have understanding rather than belief, and my understanding is based on what a religious person might call the Word of God, Creation all around us. I just call it Reality.

As Carl Sagan said, We are a way for the Universe to know itself.

See we've just had a lockdown where hairdressers were shut form many months and its surprising to me to see so many women I've always known as having straight, blonde hair are not natural blondes and don't have straight hair 😮

Cross sex hormones and plastic surgery can give you a different appearance, and its great if you can achieve a look you feel suits you best, but it doesn't change your sex. Its dangerous to tell fragile people that it does and its dangerous to tell them there won't be side effects or consequences to consider from medical intervention.

@Glassofshloer

More to the point *@LastSummerHere your belief in God and transubstantiation doesn’t a) have a dangerous impact on women’s rights b) require other people* to say they believe in it in order to keep their jobs & avoid death/rape threats.

People can believe what they like as long as it doesn’t infringe upon others.

Thanks Glass...I would never, ever force my beliefs on others.

It is painful to see women support this men's sexual rights crap. I also feel sure men pushing it don't believe in it as much as the women who accommodate them do....possibly brainwashed.