Academic Freedom, Harassment and GC academics - ask me any questions

[ProfJoPhoenix]

Hi Mumsnetters

Jo Phoenix here - as in the academic cancelled by Essex and harassed by colleagues at the OU. I decided to join mumsnet because I know that several women here are supportive of what it is that we (GC academics) are going through and dealing with. I thought I would start a thread - a sort of ask me any question thread. I'll be making an announcement on twitter (@JoPhoenix1) on Sunday morning that you might find interesting. What's happened to Kathleen Stock has left all of us reeling and I am going to do something that, I hope, will help. Watch this space.

Well, this thread would have been an eye opener if I had any illusions left in terms or the transgender activists.

A woman has been harmed and forbidden to share badly needed research on the transgender issues.

We have

1. A person claiming that no harm has come from the trans activists. This is ignoring the entire premise of the thread.

2. A person claiming that there is no research on harm implying that it doesn’t exist. Prof Jo has been prohibited to share this very research.

3. A person coming on the tell all GC women that they are flies, which is insulting and dehumanising.

As self id represents a change to the current law it's not beholden on women to prove it's harmful. It's on proponents of self id to prove it's not harmful. And so far I've seen no compelling evidence. It's not good enough to say "well it works in Malta" because Malta is a fundamentally different country to the UK.

It certainly is.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58012903.amp

I'd argue that a lack of reporting coming out of various countries with self-id proves the square root of fuck all.

@FlyingOink

As self id represents a change to the current law it's not beholden on women to prove it's harmful. It's on proponents of self id to prove it's not harmful. And so far I've seen no compelling evidence. It's not good enough to say "well it works in Malta" because Malta is a fundamentally different country to the UK.

It certainly is.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58012903.amp

I'd argue that a lack of reporting coming out of various countries with self-id proves the square root of fuck all.

Ah, Malta - the very bastion and beacon of women's rights.

theconversation.com/why-it-is-vital-to-decriminalise-abortion-the-case-of-malta-163679

Ah, Malta - the very bastion and beacon of women's rights.

Ah yes, Malta where a female journalist was assassinated for exposing Government corruption. Government officials allegedly being complicit in said assassination. Women's rights are a belter in that Country.

Most of the other Countries brought up as beacons that have introduced self-id have appalling records on women's rights, indigenous women's rights and are misogynistic to their very core. You only have to scratch the surface for the above to be blindingly obvious.

Jo Phoenix reports that she has been instructed to not show her own work in departmental meetings - this isn't a departmental meeting is it?

And we're surely not restricted to just her research on these matters - I was very clear I would be interested to see any research whatsoever - carried out by anyone, anywhere, achieving statistical significance.

Anyone can post this information - it needn't just be Jo Phoenix, just go for it!

Why has nobody, including Jo Phoenix, addressed the 7 questions I put down earlier? They are extremely important questions about how freedom of speech operates in the context of possible societal harm and discrimination.

It seems that when people are talking about 'academic freedom' they mean the freedom to have the difficult conversations that make other people feel uncomfortable and vulnerable, whilst excusing themselves from the difficult conversations that might make themselves feel uncomfortable and vulnerable.

Why has nobody, including Jo Phoenix, addressed the 7 questions I put down earlier? They are extremely important questions about how freedom of speech operates in the context of possible societal harm and discrimination.

Are you stamping your foot as you say this?

suggestionsplease1
Nobody owes you a damn thing. Personally I recognise you as a sealion. If I chose to waste time sourcing evidence for you, you'd reject it all and continue to derail the thread. I don't want to do that, I reckon the other women on this thread don't want to do that either, and Jo Phoenix probably doesn't want to do it either.

Now you can argue (to yourself) that means you're right and we're wrong, and to be honest I can't stop you from thinking that, and you'd probably think that even if you got your arse handed to you. So let's cut out the lengthy middle bit, you flounce off and tell twitter how clever you are, and we can continue the thread without you.

It used to be “it works in Canada” but you don’t often hear that any more, and then it was “it works in Ireland” but ooh, maybe not so much lately. What country will they point to as a success story, after some hideous self-ID related scandal eventually emerges out of Malta’s tiny population? Does the Vatican have self-ID yet?

It’s so obvious that

I think you are straw manning there - I’ve heard plenty of opinions in my life that make me feel uncomfortable or that I disagree with. I haven’t resorted to violent protest, “cancellation” or whatever. As I say, I’m perfectly happy for people to write and publish books I disagree with and hold debates about them. I’m not OK with violent protests by students just because they don’t like an opinion.

As an LB person I have been in the presence of people expressing homophobia and sexism many times in my life, and I’ve managed to survive without having to accuse anyone of hate speech, or wear a mask protesting them, or feel like I’m denied a right to exist.

We’ve all been answering your seven questions. Why don’t you have a little read of these articles on the 2017 cancel culture “protests” against Charles Murray and answer us as to whether you think it’s OK for students to assault professors they think they don’t agree with? The professor who was assaulted wasn’t even Murray, she was the left-wing respondent.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/03/04/protesters-at-middlebury-college-shout-down-speaker-attack-him-and-a-professor/%3foutputType=amp

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/518667/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/03/04/middlebury/hAfpA1Hquh7DIS1doiKbhJ/story.html%3foutputType=amp

So, Suggestions - why don’t you answer: do you think people should have the right to harass and assault those who have opinions they don’t agree with?

Should probably have either finished that last sentence or deleted it, but I will leave it as it is, incomplete and unmoddable. I am thinking forbidden thoughts, and no one can stop me.

(That post was to @suggestionsplease1)

Why has nobody, including Jo Phoenix, addressed the 7 questions I put down earlier?

Because no one is interested in being your intellectual servant.

@suggestionsplease1 Have you read this article linked to earlier? www.modernlawreview.co.uk/asteriti-bull-sharpe/

Also, we're still waiting for your definition of a woman. To quantify harm to women you need to first know what a woman is. You've been asked quite a few times but never answered. Kind of ironic that you said this:

"It seems that when people are talking about 'academic freedom' they mean the freedom to have the difficult conversations that make other people feel uncomfortable and vulnerable, whilst excusing themselves from the difficult conversations that might make themselves feel uncomfortable and vulnerable."

With such a bullying tone to your posts it does make me wonder if you are one of Jo's colleagues.

Why has nobody, including Jo Phoenix, addressed the 7 questions I put down earlier?

Alexa, define entitlement for me

Elsewhere there's a fantastic collection of over £60,701 carrots in a garden from nearly 2,500 citizens - women and men. Many of them have posted heartfelt moving comments if anyone wants to be reminded of the warmth and integrity of so many people.

54K CARROTS 🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕
I think that’s 54. And there may be more by now. I have mustered carrots and will continue to muster carrots.
Carrots send important messages.
🦖🦕🥕

Additional six carrots 🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕🥕

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Why has nobody, including Jo Phoenix, addressed the 7 questions I put down earlier?

Alexa, define entitlement for me

I'm hearing 'Seven!' being shouted in a Len Goodman voice now.

Well one of the reasons I objected to the comparison was that manifestly Charles Murray didn’t get cancelled. Quite a lot of other men stood up for his academic freedom, took the book seriously (and it’s more complex than suggestions allows, though it has its own bad faith reasoning); many serious senior male academics wrote reviews, critiques and rebuttals of it. He faced some controversy and a few protests, but was manifestly not treated remotely like Kathleen Stock or other gender critical feminists. The academic phrase of the time was “teach the controversy”! Whatever the conclusions about Murray’s work, it was certainly not denied a platform.

This is true in terms of academia, which would have been a great answer to the post about Murray - just yes, we're happy for people with all kinds of viewpoints to have the advantages of academic freedom and serious consideration in the public discourse. That's the real answer and it diffuses the apparent gotcha if that was the intent, because it's a solid liberal democratic answer. The only possible response to it is an assertion that someone should get to decide which ideas are the ones that shouldn't be talked about which is to most people clearly a dangerous form of authoritarianism.

Trying to avoid screenshots and gotchas is never going to be a war that can be won, it's always possible for someone to manipulate the questions so you can't say what the main point is, and the overall argument ends up looking weak. And they can always find them anyway.

@LobsterNapkin

Well one of the reasons I objected to the comparison was that manifestly Charles Murray didn’t get cancelled. Quite a lot of other men stood up for his academic freedom, took the book seriously (and it’s more complex than suggestions allows, though it has its own bad faith reasoning); many serious senior male academics wrote reviews, critiques and rebuttals of it. He faced some controversy and a few protests, but was manifestly not treated remotely like Kathleen Stock or other gender critical feminists. The academic phrase of the time was “teach the controversy”! Whatever the conclusions about Murray’s work, it was certainly not denied a platform.

This is true in terms of academia, which would have been a great answer to the post about Murray - just yes, we're happy for people with all kinds of viewpoints to have the advantages of academic freedom and serious consideration in the public discourse. That's the real answer and it diffuses the apparent gotcha if that was the intent, because it's a solid liberal democratic answer. The only possible response to it is an assertion that someone should get to decide which ideas are the ones that shouldn't be talked about which is to most people clearly a dangerous form of authoritarianism.

Trying to avoid screenshots and gotchas is never going to be a war that can be won, it's always possible for someone to manipulate the questions so you can't say what the main point is, and the overall argument ends up looking weak. And they can always find them anyway.

I think you’ve misunderstood my posts; there are a lot of ways to object to suggestions’s analogies, but I’ve never suggested that anyone should be able to cancel opinion on any other grounds.

@foxgoosefinch

I think you are straw manning there - I’ve heard plenty of opinions in my life that make me feel uncomfortable or that I disagree with. I haven’t resorted to violent protest, “cancellation” or whatever. As I say, I’m perfectly happy for people to write and publish books I disagree with and hold debates about them. I’m not OK with violent protests by students just because they don’t like an opinion.

As an LB person I have been in the presence of people expressing homophobia and sexism many times in my life, and I’ve managed to survive without having to accuse anyone of hate speech, or wear a mask protesting them, or feel like I’m denied a right to exist.

We’ve all been answering your seven questions. Why don’t you have a little read of these articles on the 2017 cancel culture “protests” against Charles Murray and answer us as to whether you think it’s OK for students to assault professors they think they don’t agree with? The professor who was assaulted wasn’t even Murray, she was the left-wing respondent.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/03/04/protesters-at-middlebury-college-shout-down-speaker-attack-him-and-a-professor/%3foutputType=amp

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/518667/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/03/04/middlebury/hAfpA1Hquh7DIS1doiKbhJ/story.html%3foutputType=amp

So, Suggestions - why don’t you answer: do you think people should have the right to harass and assault those who have opinions they don’t agree with?

No, I don't agree that anyone has the right to assault anyone or violent protests. I do believe in peaceful protests, refusal to attend classes, the right to communicate concerns repeatedly and robustly when a person feels strongly enough about potential harm in a situation.

Some people might misconstrue my posts here as harassment; I'd say if they did they are wrong, that there are legitimate questions to answer, especially in the context of a fundraiser generating tens of thousands of pounds. I believe in accountability, responsibility and awareness of possible consequences / harm to courses of action that are taken.

Nearly 61 grand! Go Jo.

I've contributed a lot of money to all sorts of women's campaigns.

It warms the very cockles of my heart to help women address the rank misogyny of these tedious, repetitive, self entitled wankers.

So at least you aren’t in favour of violent protests or harassment, @suggestionsplease1.

What about if I believe that your ideology makes me feel unsafe and at risk of harm? Can I refuse to teach you or have you in my lecture hall? Can I say I won’t be your tutor and have you handed over to someone else?

What if other students feel you make them unsafe? Do they get to say you can’t be in a space with them? At what point when you caress an opinion that upsets someone else are they allowed to protest you? You seem very sure that you know who is the one causing harm; but what of someone decides you are? Are you fair game then?

What if it turns out you’re doing a bad thing to someone or making them feel uncomfortable? Is it a different rule then?

Caress? Express! Autocorrect gone mad.

Oh and your posts aren’t harassment: I would argue they’re just wrong or misguided, but the whole point we are arguing with you is that academic freedom to debate is not harassment.