Girls are just as strong as boys?

[MillicentBystander101]

My son came out of school today and said his DT teacher gave them a stern talking to about sexism... sounded great, initially, until he said she told them girls and women are just as strong as boys and men, and that it is sexist to say otherwise. That you would definitely be just as hurt whether a girl hits you, or a boy.

I asked his thoughts and he said she is obviously wrong, and he won't be surprised if that's now used as an excuse by some of the boys to hit girls.

He then proudly told me he put a big cross through the word gender, replaced it with sex and underlined it several times. The same teacher told me in parents evening tonight, that he is doing really well in her class but was a little cheeky today 🙈 She didn't elaborate, but that's probably what she was talking about. He's year 8, just for context, so they're at an age, I think, where it does matter.

Not much point to this, other than me voicing my frustration here, rather than firing off an angry email to the school.

@ TheReluctantPhoenix agreed. But we are talking about misconceptions that arise at KS3 and KS4.

When we were about 13 or 14 we asked to play hockey with the boys. The teacher took us over to where the boys were playing so we could watch. We stopped asking straight away.

My y8 DS is playing contact rugby in PE, mixed sex class. Is that safe? If I had a girl there I'd be really concerned. DD is about.the same size as DS but he'd hurt her without meaning to. And he's one of the smaller non sporty boys.

@thirdfiddle

My y8 DS is playing contact rugby in PE, mixed sex class. Is that safe? If I had a girl there I'd be really concerned. DD is about.the same size as DS but he'd hurt her without meaning to. And he's one of the smaller non sporty boys.

In year 8 I remember the girls being bigger than the boys.

By year 9 that was starting to change.

I'd say year 8 is maybe the last year you can get away with mixed sex contact rugby, but I wouldn't be especially happy about it.

I don't think I'd be happy with that unless it was tag rugby or something. Ds has got practical cooking today with the same teacher. He's quite keen on suggesting an experiment, but that's probably because he doesn't like what they're cooking today 😄

The rugby thing sounds dangerous. Year 8 boys are mostly small but you get the odd one who has early puberty and a physique far closer to a year 10 or 11.

If you take a Year 8 or 9 class and arrange them by height, you are likely to find the girls are on average bigger than the boys, on account of the earlier adolescent growth spurt.

@thirdfiddle

My y8 DS is playing contact rugby in PE, mixed sex class. Is that safe? If I had a girl there I'd be really concerned. DD is about.the same size as DS but he'd hurt her without meaning to. And he's one of the smaller non sporty boys.

I'd not be happy with my kids playing contact rugby at all, regardless of sex. It's a dangerous sport and I don't think it should have a place within the P.E. curriculum.

Kids Rugby is contact but not collision. It is very well regulated. Far less dangerous than a hockey stick in the face.

@FemaleAndLearning

A man's punch has 162% more force than a woman, not sure where I read that but it might be worth finding out. I think my concern is that boys will think it is okay to hit girls because they can hit back the same. What subject lesson was this. The teacher clearly doesn't understand sexism and equality. I honestly think I would be writing to school for more explanation. It is quite a dangerous idea given the actual sexism in schools and the number of girls in abusive relationships. Good on your son for crossing out gender!

Well there is something wrong if what kids take from this is that it is OK to hit anyone. Keep your hands off other people, male or female, is an absolute as far as I'm concerned.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

The rugby thing sounds dangerous. Year 8 boys are mostly small but you get the odd one who has early puberty and a physique far closer to a year 10 or 11.

The last time I watched a rugby match my son was 12, he was running with the ball being chased by a boy who was at least 6 inches taller than him and probably 50% heavier. As he ran past he looked at me as if to say, "Mum, help me." Absolutely horrific and I couldn't go again. Fortunately he didn't do well in school trials (I wonder why) and could choose a different sport the following year.

However, it was a question on a training day to demonstrate that we should never imply that boys are stronger than girls and when I pointed out that boys are, in fact, stronger than girls I got shouted down for it.

Going back to that for a moment, I think the problem there was that the book carrying requires an individual, so in that context it's sexist to make generalisations. I wonder whether you'd have got shouted down if it had been a group activity of some sort? I can't think of a good classroom case but suppose they'd been asked to form two tug of war teams and they'd split by sex - then saying 'no, do it as mixed teams, boys are stronger on average than girls' wouldn't be sexist.

Is it possible that she meant that it is sexist to assume ALL men are stronger than ALL women? Because on average men are stronger than women but obviously a woman who trains at the gym multiple times a week and eats well is likely to be stronger than a man who lives on a small amount of junk food and spends most of his time in front of a computer - that woman would also likely need a higher calorie intake than the man would to maintain their body. I might just be overthinking it though and the teacher actually did think what she was saying was right.

I'd like to know the answer to this - as a PP said, at 4 girls and boys probably have equal strength, while at 14, boys will be much stronger.

At 8, I don't know. I would guess boys are just starting to show their advantage.

It's possible that was the message she was trying to get across and just didn't word it like that. Hopefully that is the case.

He's in year 8, so they're 12/13

@Namenic

No one should be hitting anyone else. The teacher should have said that girls who hit or punch can also hurt other girls or boys and it would also be classed as assault.

The stronger and bigger you are the more careful you have to be, because you can potentially do more damage (even if you don’t mean it). As a population boys/men will be stronger than girls/women, but there is some overlap, so that it is not always true. Boys should be extra careful as they could do more damage to others (men or women). In any case, zero violence should be tolerated and no hitting/slapping should be happening.

I think most people get that "men are stronger than women" doesn't mean "every single man is stronger than every single woman".

Physically stronger we're talking about by the way... lifting, carrying, punching. There are of course loads of other types of strength. Worth emphasizing.

At 8, I don't know. I would guess boys are just starting to show their advantage.

Here's my citation for boys being stronger at young ages, pre-puberty. Coach Blade in this Save Women's Sports panel (also features Emma Hilton, Sharron Davies, Inga Thompson, Colin Wright, Kristopher Hunt and Beth Steltzer).

Timestamped link (1:18:28)

Ancientgran
Absolutely agree, no hitting is acceptable. When I see women hitting men on TV it really annoys me and I always state to my girls that it is not acceptable to hit. Even Hermione punching Malfoy was not on. Was that in the book too or just the film?

Of course no one should be hitting anyone. Unfortunately though, it happens. Some schools are more proactive about it than others.

They have a lot of cctv around the school so you'd think it would be a pretty open and shut case with most incidents, however it was used in a meeting last week to tell me my son may have been exaggerating about being shoulder barged and kicked in the shins by 2 boys. The reason the teacher was late was because he was dealing with an accusation in the corridor of a girl who was 'very emotional' about being really hurt by a boy pushing her twice. After watching footage, he decided it was more of a nudge, and not that bad. Therefore, I should consider that my ds might not have reported what happened 100% accurately 🤨

A bit off topic, and I probably should have name changed for this post, but actually shows that their perception of sexism or bullying probably isn't the best.

What does contact but not collision mean? As DS described it they were trying to tackle each other by grabbing round the middle. I don't know if it gets more collision later but I wouldn't fancy getting tackled by some of his classmates as a tall adult woman.

Millicent, hope he has a good lesson - is he going to offer to arm wrestle the teacher?

@Craftycorvid

Before puberty, yes, strength is about the same; after puberty, no, with some outlying exceptions of very slight men and women with very strong athletic builds, men are stronger.

I read the results of a study that showed that boys, on average, pull ahead in speed and strength from about the age of 9. I have always told my 8yo DS that boys and girls are roughly the same at his age but over the next few years that will change. Boys become faster and stronger as they grow to become men and they have better hand to eye coordination. Girls develop stronger immune systems and almost certainly higher endurance levels as they become women and they are better at doing multiple things at once. That men and women each have their own advantages and disadvantages and as a society we should use them to complement each other.

I do think it's very important for everyone to understand that men are inherently stronger and faster. Because not really understanding that is extremely dangerous for women. But I also think it's extremely important for it to be damned clear that being male isn't better and that women also have very important physiological advantages. Because when we only talk about speed and strength, we give the impression that being male is inherently better and that is what leads to a stubborn insistence among some women that it just isn't true.

I remember when I was younger how fucking gutting it was to learn I would never, ever be as fast or strong as an equivalent male. That my little brothers would outgrow me in so many important ways. If it had been made clear to all of us, that I would also have important advantages, it would have been much easier to immediately accept. And I hope very much that I'm making reality clear to my son in a way that makes him understand that he might be faster and stronger but he is not better and he will lack some things the women around him have. And that his strength and speed is a responsibility he will hold, not a prize to lord over women.

@trancepants

Superb summary.

At 12/13 my son was 6 foot and there were several boys in his class not short of that height and quite capable of seriously hurting a girl in a contact sport. Any class in the first 2 years of secondary will have a few boys who have yet to reach puberty but the vast majority will be well on the way and at 13 many, if not the majority, will be considerably stronger than their female counterparts.

@thirdfiddle

My y8 DS is playing contact rugby in PE, mixed sex class. Is that safe? If I had a girl there I'd be really concerned. DD is about.the same size as DS but he'd hurt her without meaning to. And he's one of the smaller non sporty boys.

Depends - if it's touch rugby it's probably fine.

However DD2was harmed in primary school by fellow male classmate in touch rugby - some kids shere do seem to start puberty before secondary years.

DD1 was accidentally hurt in y10 mixed PE lesson - I think it was friendly dodge game no real contact - one of the boys 6 ft plus miss judge something and went careering into her at some speed -leaving her on the floor unable to get up. PE staff were apparently visibly shcoked and very upset - complete accident and she avoided serious damage.

There is a bit of a thing at the secondary school of mixed PE lessons - it's not usually rugby its more swimming, gymastcis weights etc.