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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Campaign of bullying and intimidation at Sussex University vs Professor Kathleen Stock

501 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 07/10/2021 09:36

Absolute disgrace. Posters on campus calling for her to be sacked. Academic colleague tweeting that he agrees with this. twitter.com/FrancescoFv37/status/1445727937660076032?t=-Di7mRf5sznFvvzww8UI2w&s=19 I saw a tweet saying there was a burning in effigy. Can't confirm this but nothing would surprise me now. Time for Sussex staff, students and alumni to put their heads over the parapet.

OP posts:
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GCAcademic · 10/10/2021 12:30

This is really chilling. Weren't those two Professors at Evergreen effectively forced from their jobs because the campus police said that their safety on campus could no longer be guaranteed?

I hope someone at that university locates their balls and hauls these gender terrorists up on disciplinaries pronto.

AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 10/10/2021 12:34

Yes. I believe it was a husband and wife pair of academics at Evergreen State.

Eucalyptustrees · 10/10/2021 12:34

Desparation.

Christine Burns MBE

@christineburns
Here’s a ‘thought experiment’. I know some people rate them highly. What if no fresh sixth formers applied to go to a particular university for some reason — any negative image reason will do for this. What happens to that institution in three years’ time?

Jaysmith71 · 10/10/2021 12:43

My view of Sussex Uni is shaped by the effect it had on Thabo Mbeki, who was so drenched in POMO that he could not bring himself to accept that HIV was the cause of AIDS rather than structural inequalities arising from colonialism, etc.

BettyFilous · 10/10/2021 12:59

@Eucalyptustrees

Desparation.

Christine Burns MBE

@christineburns
Here’s a ‘thought experiment’. I know some people rate them highly. What if no fresh sixth formers applied to go to a particular university for some reason — any negative image reason will do for this. What happens to that institution in three years’ time?

Yes, desperation. Whilst the woke plays well with school leavers and undergrads, the universities have no idea how it is affecting postgraduate recruitment (postgrad fees are not capped) or parents’ thinking. Parents are now hugely influential on their children’s university choices. Failure to tackle gender extremism on campus and protect academic freedom and critical thinking will play very poorly with the public. It also signals a hostile work environment for anyone who doesn’t agree humans can change sex (about 95% of us when clear questions and language is used). DS will be applying to universities next year and I will be paying attention to academic freedom when he draws up his shortlist. I want him to be educated, challenged and encouraged to think critically, not cowed and taught to parrot the party line.
SusannaOwens · 10/10/2021 13:10

Failure to tackle gender extremism on campus and protect academic freedom and critical thinking will play very poorly with the public.

I think you may have underestimated how much today's teens have bought into genderID politics. JK Rowling is an absolute dirty word amongst DD's peer group, they totally believe TWAW. DD is a Harry Potter fan, but keeps her HP stuff in a cupboard so friends can't see it. Lots of gender issues and alternative pronouns in her year group (yr12) and these are the people unis are selling to. I won't be controlling DD's uni choice, I doubt many parents will be.

TheWeeDonkey · 10/10/2021 13:20

@Eucalyptustrees

Desparation.

Christine Burns MBE

@christineburns
Here’s a ‘thought experiment’. I know some people rate them highly. What if no fresh sixth formers applied to go to a particular university for some reason — any negative image reason will do for this. What happens to that institution in three years’ time?

How would that work? Does Christine Burns think that every 18yo feels the same way? What about students coming from other pathways? Mature students, overseas students, students coming with practical qualifications, apprenticeships and the like.

Do all those people think the same way as Christine Burns? It's pretty egotistical and not a little immature to believe so.

Eucalyptustrees · 10/10/2021 13:41

If a global pandemic can't dent registration numbers I don't see "no fresh sixth formers" (fresh? Odd choice) being worth a thought experiment unless you are desperate to prop up your disappearing influence.

Eucalyptustrees · 10/10/2021 13:43

Surely by17 you would want to keep your childhood books in a cupboard?

FlyingOink · 10/10/2021 13:49

I though overseas students were where the big bucks were, anyway?
Are Chinese students more or less likely to attend a university that protects free speech?

Cismyfatarse · 10/10/2021 13:54

@Cismyfatarse

Thanks all. It was a private conversation with a highly intelligent woman who is living in a weird filter bubble.

I will attempt to bring her round. This is important as she is a very good friend, and she is influential.

It worked. Thank you so much. I spoke, discussed the ideas in the book (and the article posted) and my friend listened and agreed to have been wrong. Interesting how people pick up weird ideas.

But, the reason she is one of my favourite people is she is intelligent enough to understand when she is wrong.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/10/2021 13:55

Voting with feet can work in several ways. Some young people have bought into gender ideology and may use that as a way to rule university courses out or in.

However, if management of a university push, or allow their 'diversity and equality' teams to push, an approach that puts student feelings first and academic rigour, freedom of thought and freedom of expression a long way behind, they can expect to start losing top academics and potential Ph.D. students.

The slogan seen at Sussex 'We're not paying £9750 to be taught by a transphobe!' or whatever it was sums it all up. Some students see themselves as consumers. They are buying their qualifications and the university experience, just as, in many cases, their parents bought their school level qualifications by paying for fees and/or tutors and/or a house in the catchment of a good school. They feel entitled to dictate how that university experience will play out. They won't have their views challenged, because the customer is always right. They will get good marks because they've paid for them. If the work is sub-standard that must be the fault of poor teaching, so they should get the good marks anyway.

When I worked in a university a decade or so ago, it was an eye opener to see how much weight the senior admin put on student feedback. It was very much a case of a mouthy student saying 'Jump!' and the faculty admin saying 'How high?'

OP posts:
Clymene · 10/10/2021 13:55

@SusannaOwens

Failure to tackle gender extremism on campus and protect academic freedom and critical thinking will play very poorly with the public.

I think you may have underestimated how much today's teens have bought into genderID politics. JK Rowling is an absolute dirty word amongst DD's peer group, they totally believe TWAW. DD is a Harry Potter fan, but keeps her HP stuff in a cupboard so friends can't see it. Lots of gender issues and alternative pronouns in her year group (yr12) and these are the people unis are selling to. I won't be controlling DD's uni choice, I doubt many parents will be.

Some of them. Some of them think it's a load of bollocks
TheWeeDonkey · 10/10/2021 13:56

@FlyingOink

I though overseas students were where the big bucks were, anyway? Are Chinese students more or less likely to attend a university that protects free speech?
You're absolutely right FlyingOink and thats a really good point.
Manderleyagain · 10/10/2021 13:57

@Cismyfatarse

Thanks all. It was a private conversation with a highly intelligent woman who is living in a weird filter bubble.

I will attempt to bring her round. This is important as she is a very good friend, and she is influential.

She must be in a very bizarre filtered world.

You can make the point that your friend has been lied to about what stock does & thinks, and hope she begins to wonder why she is being lied to.
Stock tweeted on 14th June saying that she got married so has a wife. I believe she does a rolling delete of tweets so it's no longer there but there are lots of replies congratulating her if you search.

She has also written about sexuality, eg the lecture to the aristotelian society.

The claims being made about her are very dishonest. Many on twitter (because they can't condemn her with the book which is moderate) try try to condemn her by the fact she signed the declaration written by whrc. But they do it by screen shotting a completely different text by whrc, not what stock signed. Thoroughly thoroughly dishonest. Sickeningly dishonest to try and upend someone's life with lies.

Generally someone's private life should be irrelevant, but when people make it relevant by using lies about it fior their own political goals, it has kind of become relevant like it or not.

Helleofabore · 10/10/2021 14:01

Cismyfatarse

Glad that you were able to have a discussion about it.

TheWeeDonkey · 10/10/2021 14:05

I agree Clymene DS is at uni now and has absolutely no interest in any of this. He finds it more bemusing than anything else and stays away from it all, a lot of his peers feel the same.

I do think this is something that young girls maybe get caught up in and then maybe by uni age a certain demographic of young men see it as a good stick to beat dissenting (female) voices with for obvious reasons.

I still think most young adults have a live and let live attitude and that while they not believe in gender identity they're happy to let people who do believe live their lives peaceably. It's just a shame a loud minority don't feel the same way.

RedDogsBeg · 10/10/2021 14:18

The slogan seen at Sussex 'We're not paying £9750 to be taught by a transphobe!' or whatever it was sums it all up. Some students see themselves as consumers.

Those students need to be reminded forcefully that it is not their money they are using whilst at University it is a loan from taxpayers, you know people who work for a fucking living, unless and until they have paid back the loan it is not money out of their pockets.

Taxpayers should get vocal on this, why should they loan money to people who clearly shouldn't be attending a higher seat of learning as they very obviously don't have the necessary aptitude or attitude required to benefit from it.

SusannaOwens · 10/10/2021 14:18

@Clymene

I really hope you are right. DD volunteers for an organisation that quite obviously makes her see the risks and unfairness of TWAW, but she would be totally ostracised if she vocalised this at school, so she goes with be kind. Her peers seem to genuinely be on board though.

SusannaOwens · 10/10/2021 14:23

Those students need to be reminded forcefully that it is not their money they are using whilst at University it is a loan from taxpayers, you know people who work for a fucking living, unless and until they have paid back the loan it is not money out of their pockets.

No, it's a loan that they will have hanging round their necks for a big part of their lives and a lot of them are working and saving towards their education. They absolutely should be getting a decent experience for that. The only people to blame are the government who have turned our students into consumers.
Not that I'm justifying their behaviour at Sussex, at all. But I have huge sympathy, for instance with students who have not had a good experience due to Corona etc. It is absolutely their money that is being wasted.

TheWeeDonkey · 10/10/2021 14:25

They're not paying £9750 per year to come out with the same world view as they went in with either. That would be no education at all.

BettyFilous · 10/10/2021 14:29

I talk to my teens about this. They are kind to their LGBT+ friends, accepting of difference and use preferred pronouns etc, but they don’t think that trans people are literally changing sex. They can understand the difference between biological sex and gender. They both think transwomen expecting sex from lesbians is wrong and very disrespectful. They do not bring it up in their friendship groups because it would cause upset.

RedDogsBeg · 10/10/2021 14:31

They are being loaned the money, it is not their money just as if you take out a mortgage it is not your money you are using to buy the house it is the mortgage lenders, if you fail to pay it back you lose the house. With student loans unless and until you get a job with a high enough salary you don't pay anything back, yes they should get a decent experience but taxpayers should equally get value for the money they are loaning and it is being wasted on the kind of students who are threatening and harassing Kathleen Stock.

GCAcademic · 10/10/2021 14:32

@TheWeeDonkey

They're not paying £9750 per year to come out with the same world view as they went in with either. That would be no education at all.
Unfortunately, that is exactly what many of them think they are paying for. It's increasingly common to see a certain kind of (privileged middle class) student say that in their UCAS personal statement that they want to study xyz subject at university to "explore their identity". It's narcissistic navel gazing, and they believe they're paying for validation. Gone are the days when students broadly believed that they were studying to broaden their minds, encounter different ways of thinking, and understand the world.
GCAcademic · 10/10/2021 14:38

yes they should get a decent experience but taxpayers should equally get value for the money they are loaning and it is being wasted on the kind of students who are threatening and harassing Kathleen Stock.

I agree with this. Although I would probably lose my job as a result, I think there needs to be a drastic scaling back of university-level education in certain subjects, so that we can be sure that only people who can properly benefit from it are in Higher Education. That doesn't just mean people who have As at A level (that is practically everyone, anyway) but people who are genuinely open to the exchange of ideas and broadening of their minds. No one who behaves like these students at Sussex are doing has any place on a university campus.

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