Binders and breathing issues

[NameChangeinHaste]

This week in school I witnessed one of our NB female students, who also happens to have asthma, have an awful attack of shortness of breath. I can’t say if it was an asthma attack, though they did have their inhaler.
It only struck me last night that they may be wearing a binder, which will likely have exacerbated the attack.
I need to send an email to Head of Year, gently suggesting that if they are wearing one they may be linked.
Turns out we’re fully signed up to Stonewall, so dinners to tread carefully, though many colleagues are aware of my thoughts.
Does anyone know of only good links outlining the link between binding and breathing difficulties that I could attach to me email?
Many thanks.

@GrolliffetheDragon

Would you also suggest that they should check that a child who was cutting themself was doing so 'safely' by only using clean blades and not cutting too deep?

A child who is so distressed by their body that they are self harming needs urgent help with their mental health, not advice on how to self harm 'safely'.

Well harm minimisation is a thing. Demanding somebody stops self-harming before addressing the issues behind it can be counter-productive.

And sadly, help is rarely available quickly enough.

Yes, this is obviously a complex problem. But Plan seemed to be implying that there was nothing wrong with this sort of self harm, and that the girls self-harming in this way should just be encouraged to self-harm 'safely'.

@PlanDeRaccordement
What is a NB child? You use this term as though there is an accepted definition of what it means. What does it mean to you and why do you believe that breast binding is an appropriate thing for female 'NB children' to do?

@OldCrone

There seems to be an anti-NB vibe on this thread.

You're mistaking concern about teenage girls harming themselves for 'anti-NB'.

If grown men can be 'women with penises', why can't teenage girls who want to be non-binary be non-binary with breasts?

My hunch is that the teenage girls are keen to try to get away from the unwanted attention having breasts gives them while they are still so young they can't handle it (not that they should have to handle it, at any age). Middle-aged males are less keen to remove body parts/have them re-purposed, because there's a significant risk that they will lose their ability to orgasm, and unlike the pre-pubescent kids put on blockers they know what they would be giving up, and aren't keen. (Nor should they be - but the double standard is horrifying.)

My hunch is that the teenage girls are keen to try to get away from the unwanted attention having breasts gives them while they are still so young they can't handle it (not that they should have to handle it, at any age).

Yes, I'm sure this is a large part of the reason, and in that respect it's similar to the reasons for breast ironing in some communities, except in this case the wish to do it is coming from the girls rather than their parents.

But there's no reason why a 'non binary' gender identity couldn't inhabit any sort of body is there? Isn't that the whole point, that the body isn't a marker of the 'non-binary' identity, the identity being more important than the body?

The mere fact that women can have penises according to gender ideology indicates that the body is not in any way expected to 'match' someone's gender identity.

So this does look as though a NB identity with accompanying breast binding is just a way for girls to escape unwanted attention from males. Just saying that they don't like being ogled and so want to hide their breasts isn't enough. They have to adopt a gender identity which legitimises their desire to escape unwanted attention from males.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Chest binding isn’t self harm if done properly and safely. Just like corset wearing isn’t self harm if you’re not tight lacing.

I don’t think having a chat with a teen about chest binding safety is making the school responsible. After all you have SRE that covers safety in relationships and safe sex...that doesn’t make the school vulnerable to legal action if a teen catches an STI. This is no different. It’s providing information to the teen.

And I would assume that having asthma somehow magically imbues teens with the knowledge of safe chest binding.

It would be a bold HT who would bet their career that an inquest or a Serious Càse Review (or their new equivalent) would come to this conclusion...

The trouble with binding is that you don't know they're doing it unless they tell you. How is a PE teacher supposed to take what is effectively a hidden, self-imposed, artificial disability into account when leading a lesson? Someone is going to end up being sued in a scenario like this, or worse, a young woman is going to lose her life.

Of course no -binary children with breasts could call them something else, but they don't. Breasts are perceived as awkward and embarrassing purely because they attract unwanted comment and attention from boys and men. It's that that needs to change!

I worked with a colleague who recalled a secondary maths teacher who often used to line half a dozen or so girls up at the front of the class in ascending order of breast size to illustrate something or other. Hers were always the largest. Humiliation at the hands of a powerful and unchallengeable man.

I get it; I do. But if binders and later double mastectomies are the answer desperately unhappy girls and young women reach for, don't we need to go further back to the source of the problem?

I worked with a colleague who recalled a secondary maths teacher who often used to line half a dozen or so girls up at the front of the class in ascending order of breast size to illustrate something or other.

SAY WHAT???!!!!????????
That's horrendous!!!!

@ComprehensiveTea

I worked with a colleague who recalled a secondary maths teacher who often used to line half a dozen or so girls up at the front of the class in ascending order of breast size to illustrate something or other.

SAY WHAT???!!!!????????
That's horrendous!!!!

Holy fuck. He should have been in fucking prison. Creep.

I fucking despise the capitalist patriarchy that has turned breasts from a source of nourishment into something that must be bound out of existence.

The breast tissue does have to go somewhere, and it's not just flattened breasts that are the problem, but permanent back pain and rib deformation. There's no safe way to bind. I've advised a cup sized sports bra and a vest, or layers of clothes, to girls who have asked about binding on social media.
I developed a hunched posture for the same reason, and wore minimiser bras. I probably would have tried binding if it was about at the time, and I wouldn't have been concerned about health risks. In the same way I wasn't concerned about health risks for a lot of the stupid stuff I did when I was younger.
This isn't about risk minimisation, this is the equivalent of stopping a toddler playing with a power socket. You don't put the toddler in rubber boots, you keep them away from the socket.
The thing is, teenagers have a much stronger sense of self, hate being patronised and can often argue articulately. Still doesn't mean we should let them hurt themselves.
Transmen on reddit are discussing permanent pain and permanent damage caused by binding, and how it comes with much worse mastectomy outcomes, but even their voices are being silenced.
I have a lot of sympathy for girls who want to be as invisible as they can be, especially to boys and men. Schoolboys these days have been watching hardcore pornography since primary school. I'd want to hide too.
Schools have rules about skirt length and hair colours, it would be easy to ban binders too. They're not religious headgear, are they? Schools should display some leadership.

Transmen on reddit are discussing permanent pain and permanent damage caused by binding, and how it comes with much worse mastectomy outcomes, but even their voices are being silenced.

Other trans (space) men are discussing experiences of long-term safe binding wihtout those negative consequences, and have had entirely successful top surgery, even with quite sizeable breasts (I know of a 34G who had a perfect result after binding for about 4-5 years).

In some cases one can get drunk and drive a car without an accident

Does that mean we should allow drunk driving ?

@snekkes

Transmen on reddit are discussing permanent pain and permanent damage caused by binding, and how it comes with much worse mastectomy outcomes, but even their voices are being silenced.

Other trans (space) men are discussing experiences of long-term safe binding wihtout those negative consequences, and have had entirely successful top surgery, even with quite sizeable breasts (I know of a 34G who had a perfect result after binding for about 4-5 years).

A 'perfect' double mastectomy of healthy breasts. You go girl!

@snekkes

Transmen on reddit are discussing permanent pain and permanent damage caused by binding, and how it comes with much worse mastectomy outcomes, but even their voices are being silenced.

Other trans (space) men are discussing experiences of long-term safe binding wihtout those negative consequences, and have had entirely successful top surgery, even with quite sizeable breasts (I know of a 34G who had a perfect result after binding for about 4-5 years).

What ratio is acceptable? What percentage of collateral damage are you prepared to sustain?

You're not even suggesting the majority suffer no consequences, just that some transmen suffer no consequences.

There are people who smoke 40 cigarettes a day and don't get cancer, you know.

I know of a 34G
A man with a 34 inch chest and arms proportionate for a female is going to have trouble finding shirts, I suggest you point this person in the direction of a tailor.
For casual wear, it's going to be between an extra small and and extra extra small, depending on the manufacturer. Probably best to stick to boyswear.

Tea and Arabella, indeed. He should have been sacked and then charged, but the girls were socialised to do as they were told. I doubt they told their parents as they were all being systematically shamed and denoralised. I felt I could have torn his heart out of his chest just hearing about it years later.

In my own teaching days we had to line girls and boys up separately before lessons (why?!) and I clocked some boys "rating" the girls breasts as they filed past. Mixed lines after that, whatever SLT said, and said boys detentioned, torn off a strip and parents notified. It stopped. In my classes.

Girls and women run the gauntlet of the male gaze - and mouth - every single day. It's the boys and men who need to change, and it's not women's sole job to change them.

What ratio is acceptable? What percentage of collateral damage are you prepared to sustain?
You're not even suggesting the majority suffer no consequences, just that some transmen suffer no consequences.

No, I'm not, I'll let this peer-reviewed publihed paper do that. Transition regret is extremely low (

Regret is rare

Especially when you don't look for it , when it is stigmatised , and when the transitioned person would lose even more if they went back

decades ago transistion wasn't an option for distressed women and none of those women now regret not being born more recently

Strange that

Older trans men are also rare, when you don't look for them. I know of plenty, but I take it we move in different social circles.

This seems quite disparaging. Do you also consider a 5'10" cis woman with size 10 feet and a 42" underbust to be an inadequate example of her sex?
Was just offering advice as I wear men's clothing. I don't consider myself inadequate.

You used this person as an example, I hope they were happy for you to do so.

@snekkes

Transmen on reddit are discussing permanent pain and permanent damage caused by binding, and how it comes with much worse mastectomy outcomes, but even their voices are being silenced.

Other trans (space) men are discussing experiences of long-term safe binding wihtout those negative consequences, and have had entirely successful top surgery, even with quite sizeable breasts (I know of a 34G who had a perfect result after binding for about 4-5 years).

Space men? Binding in a space suit is adding a whole other dimension to the issue, surely?

*No, I'm not, I'll let this peer-reviewed publihed paper do that. Transition regret is extremely low (

@FlyingOink

This seems quite disparaging. Do you also consider a 5'10" cis woman with size 10 feet and a 42" underbust to be an inadequate example of her sex? Was just offering advice as I wear men's clothing. I don't consider myself inadequate.

You used this person as an example, I hope they were happy for you to do so.

Indeed he is.

@midgedude

Regret is rare

Especially when you don't look for it , when it is stigmatised , and when the transitioned person would lose even more if they went back

decades ago transistion wasn't an option for distressed women and none of those women now regret not being born more recently

Strange that

sunk costs fallacy.

[quote FlyingOink]*No, I'm not, I'll let this peer-reviewed publihed paper do that. Transition regret is extremely low (