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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Heads up. Posie on Triggernometry Tomorrow Sun 3rd 7pm

119 replies

Childrenofthestones · 02/10/2021 19:25

Just a heads up Kellie Jay back for a second time in a new YT interview with the lads on Triggernometry. 😊👍

OP posts:
Gottalife · 04/10/2021 12:15

@7H9g5Kj

Great interview. A few weird comments though, like it seems PP dismissed racism as not being an actual problem (the football : taking the knee conversation) and I felt that was off. Also her anecdote about single mothers in pyjamas was quite mean, especially considering the AWOL dads are the real problem.
Just scratch the surface. You have to see the hate behind the rhetoric. This is someone who wanted armed men to patrol womens toilets.
Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 12:17

I always saw social conservatism being things like mothers feeling uneasy about the queer agenda and gimp masks at pride events.

Is the difference between social conservatism roughly equivalent to the difference between libertarianism and liberalism?!

People here will probably disagree, but in economic terms some argue that BJ's government is more socialist than Blair's.

TimeToDateAgain · 04/10/2021 12:17

You have to see the hate behind the rhetoric. This is someone who wanted armed men to patrol womens toilets.

What an interesting comment. Do you have a link to substantiate this in its context, please?

Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 12:24

Sorry I left a bit off my tongue in cheek comment:

Is the difference between social conservatism and conservatism roughly equivalent to the difference between libertarianism and liberalism?!

The answer is probably not, but the confusion between libertarianism and liberalism is possibly as much of a problem. I think, no academic sources to back me up, that the idea that anything goes, is what underlies the unease that mothers (and others) feel about the queer agenda.

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 12:27

My thoughts?

I agree that identity politics as used by the elites - such as the idea that all we need is more Black people on the boards of corporations that harm people and the environment without actually changing the corporate practice - is not about actually helping people achieve equality.

However, if you mean identity politics as in the idea that White people are the default and everyone else’s issues are some annoying add-on, then I disagree.

I am Black and a woman. Both of these things impact my life and cannot be separated. My grandmother came to the UK to work as a domestic from the Caribbean. Her labour was exploited and abused by the White family she worked for. At the end of her life we learned she was raped by the White man she worked for, while his wife - a White woman - also physically abused and degraded her. She had no freedom, no ability to seek work elsewhere, no way to refuse work when she was demanded to work 20 hour days. This history shapes my understanding of feminism - and while many on this board refuse to acknowledge intersectionality this is exactly why race matters in our analysis of feminism. Saying “oh it’s just a class and economic issue why bring up identity” ignores all the ways race also is part of power. Saying that “women’s issues” are universal without considering race ignores the power the White woman had over my grandmother specifically because my Grandmother was a poor, Black, Caribbean woman - poor because she was from a country colonized by the British - who was unable to defend herself specifically because of immigration laws structured against Black people. So no, I don’t think understanding that race also affects women who are not White is vulgar “identity politics.”

My earliest memory is a White boy biking by and screaming racial slurs at me. I am 35 years old. This is not ancient history. I grew up outside of Manchester. My brother got beat up every day on the playground by White boys. When I was 7 years old, 11 year old White boys in my sister’s class surrounded me and asked if I knew what a blowjob is. So how can I understand my life as a woman separate from these experiences of racialized and sexualized violence? But the point isn’t the personal experience, it’s what it reveals about systemic issues - that Black women specifically are at the bottom of society’s racial and economic hierarchy. We cannot talk about capitalism without also talking about the racial labour that keeps capitalism going, and we cannot talk feminism without talking about how Black and other racialized women perform labour - often domestic labour, often in White families - that is the least paid and most open to abuse. This while we face child welfare systems, racism in healthcare, and within the education system as well.

So no, it’s not “identity politics” to discuss how historical forces of racism and colonialism work within capitalism to render Black bodies as property leasing to the exploitation of Black labour.

By the way, I never said PP SHOULD speak about migrancy. I said that people on this board suggesting that her issue with kneeling is that the Black players aren’t acknowledging the forced labour that makes the stadium - largely African and Indian labourers - would make her a massive hypocrite as well since she certainly protests whatever she wants without being demanded to also speak about migrant labour in England. My point was that why are Black people only allowed to speak if they address every single global issue, which certainly isn’t a standard PP or anyone here holds themselves to. Do you think the issue is more likely your - and PPs - discomfort with discussions of racism?

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 12:29

Leading to, not leasing.

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 12:38

I mean, who makes her t-shirts? Likely cheap sweatshop labour. So is everything she says invalidated because she’s not talking about the women who work the sewing machines?

TimeToDateAgain · 04/10/2021 12:40

@HazelCarbyFan

I mean, who makes her t-shirts? Likely cheap sweatshop labour. So is everything she says invalidated because she’s not talking about the women who work the sewing machines?
You might email and ask her?
Gottalife · 04/10/2021 12:41

@TimeToDateAgain

You have to see the hate behind the rhetoric. This is someone who wanted armed men to patrol womens toilets.

What an interesting comment. Do you have a link to substantiate this in its context, please?

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

ScreamingMeMe · 04/10/2021 12:43

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

What utter rubbish Hmm

334bu · 04/10/2021 12:44

Lisa Nancy would be the first to support the rights of workers and yet she would put male rapists into female prisoners' cells.

334bu · 04/10/2021 12:44

Lisa Nandy!!!

Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 12:48

Thank you. A lot to unpick, and I suspect that at the end of the day we may up agreeing to disagree, which is what often happens when two people have different life experiences but are prepared to listen.

I will confess I assumed you were one on the regular posters who comes on here to denigrate Posie, or indeed any other strong articulate woman. And where the disagreement is not extended to providing argument, but simply attack.

Posie is a marmite figure with strongly expressed views, so disagreeing is fine.

Football is strange. As I said, despite going to 20 or so matches a year I have never heard anything remotely racist. Or indeed any sense fans prefer players because of their skin colour. (Current fan favourite is a guy from Colombia who picks up far too many cards. Previously it was a mixed race striker from the Midlands.) Yet I remember a woke friend, who had never been to a match, essentially accusing me of being racist for following football. She had heard....

Homophobia is different, and it is remarkable to compare the number of "out" players in the women's game compared to the men's. But that is seriously off topic.

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 12:49

TimeToDateAgain

HazelCarbyFan
I mean, who makes her t-shirts? Likely cheap sweatshop labour. So is everything she says invalidated because she’s not talking about the women who work the sewing machines?
You might email and ask her?

I could, but it would also be silly if some man said women shouldn’t protest publicly until they know everything about the labour behind everything they’re wearing right? Would it be relevant if a man said, “I won’t take women protesting seriously unless they know that every article of clothing they’re wearing is made by someone making a living wage?” No, that would be a huge derail. It is also a derail when White people claim Black people can’t protest racism without being responsible for how the stadium was made.

TimeToDateAgain · 04/10/2021 12:52

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

Her idea is both rebarbative and ludicrous. I've no idea if this was her version of A Modest Proposal gone very badly awry.

I don't know what she was suggesting. I would be horribly alarmed if I saw anyone with firearms in a public washroom but accept this must be a reality in the US. Even so, seeing an armed man would escalate my state of alarm and intimidation.

I'd be taken aback if she was arguing for anyone to shoot someone. Not only for the harm to others but also the fact that anyone doing that would be charged, convicted, imprisoned, and be absent from their families for a very long time.

Although I'm startled by that video, it would have been better without the editorialising comments. It's also odd to editorialise that this is to provide her (to me) absurdity in context but not include any preamble or anything after. Was this a random comment? Response to a question in a livestream? Part of an ill-thought out response to a news story or interview?

Gottalife · 04/10/2021 12:55

@ScreamingMeMe

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

What utter rubbish Hmm

Ok, just pretend it never happened.
ScreamingMeMe · 04/10/2021 13:01

I'm not, I'm disagreeing with your "interpretation" of what she said.

Datun · 04/10/2021 13:07

@TimeToDateAgain

It suggests to me she just wants the self id-ing scum to be shot for going for a pee.

Her idea is both rebarbative and ludicrous. I've no idea if this was her version of A Modest Proposal gone very badly awry.

I don't know what she was suggesting. I would be horribly alarmed if I saw anyone with firearms in a public washroom but accept this must be a reality in the US. Even so, seeing an armed man would escalate my state of alarm and intimidation.

I'd be taken aback if she was arguing for anyone to shoot someone. Not only for the harm to others but also the fact that anyone doing that would be charged, convicted, imprisoned, and be absent from their families for a very long time.

Although I'm startled by that video, it would have been better without the editorialising comments. It's also odd to editorialise that this is to provide her (to me) absurdity in context but not include any preamble or anything after. Was this a random comment? Response to a question in a livestream? Part of an ill-thought out response to a news story or interview?

If you advance search Posie Parker on here, you will see that there quite literally thousands upon thousands of comments about her.

Indeed, there are 45 entire threads devoted solely to her.

www.mumsnet.com/SearchArch?search_origin=mobile&mustmatch=Posie+Parker+&dontmatch=&nickname=&titles_only=on&fromDate=&toDate=

Wanting to find out the background to any and all of her comments would be reasonably easy if you matched up the dates of the comment to the threads.

Additionally, she has her own organisation on social media called standing for women, where she answers loads of questions. She is also, if I remember correctly, in London on the last Sunday of every month at speakers corner.

The one characteristic you can guarantee you will find in Posie Parker is the willingness to talk.

Something which an extraordinary number of people find rather uncomfortable.

HazelCarbyFan · 04/10/2021 13:08

@Needmoresleep

Thank you. A lot to unpick, and I suspect that at the end of the day we may up agreeing to disagree, which is what often happens when two people have different life experiences but are prepared to listen.

I will confess I assumed you were one on the regular posters who comes on here to denigrate Posie, or indeed any other strong articulate woman. And where the disagreement is not extended to providing argument, but simply attack.

Posie is a marmite figure with strongly expressed views, so disagreeing is fine.

Football is strange. As I said, despite going to 20 or so matches a year I have never heard anything remotely racist. Or indeed any sense fans prefer players because of their skin colour. (Current fan favourite is a guy from Colombia who picks up far too many cards. Previously it was a mixed race striker from the Midlands.) Yet I remember a woke friend, who had never been to a match, essentially accusing me of being racist for following football. She had heard....

Homophobia is different, and it is remarkable to compare the number of "out" players in the women's game compared to the men's. But that is seriously off topic.

It’s silly to say following football is racist. Being racist while following football is racist. Following football is following football.

I’ve been lurking for ages on this board. Some I find very helpful but I find it frustrating when discussions of racism are so often reduced to “wokeism.” That’s what spurred me to post this time, I guess.

Some internet discussions of race can be very superficial and detached from real world oppression but that doesn’t mean that therefore it’s reasonable to say all discussions of race and racism are just about virtue signalling or being woke (a term originally from Black people). I’ve seen too many threads on here that the moment race comes up people immediately jump to “what about the White working class” as if we can’t discuss both race and class, and as if class isn’t also bounded by race.

OldCrone · 04/10/2021 13:15

I don't know what she was suggesting.

What she seemed to be suggesting was a sort of reverse Man Friday. The bit about guns was a 'maybe you carry a gun, maybe you don't', so not specifically about those who did (it's not clear why she even mentioned guns, apart from perhaps to appeal to a certain demographic who like to protect 'their' women.)

It was poorly thought out on her part (I think she deleted the video when she realised how it looked).

When Man Friday started up it was discussed on here about men using women's spaces as part of the protest, but it was generally seen as counter-productive because it would cause unnecessary distress to women who didn't know what the protest was about. I think some posters on here, like Posie, thought it would be a good idea until the negative impact on women was pointed out to them.

I get the impression that Posie is someone who often speaks first and then thinks. This seems to have been one of those occasions.

ScreamingMeMe · 04/10/2021 13:15

It wasn't THAT long ago that black players who missed penalties in the Euros were racially abused. It was all over the news and social media. I could perhaps understand somebody who doesn't like football missing this...but someone who is allegedly a football fan...?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-57848761.amp

TimeToDateAgain · 04/10/2021 13:18

For anyone who is interested in exploring what PP said and the contemporaneous MN discussion then entering this will return a number of threads.

As I suspected, it seems to have been in response to a livestream although whether this has its roots in the comments or a superchat question is unclear.

site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights PP guns men

Needmoresleep · 04/10/2021 13:23

Thank you again.

The same (white) person, who believes football is intrinsically racist, regularly posts pictures from the latest BLM, anti Brexit, extinction rebellion march to the extent that causes seem to have been reduced to entertainment.

This board, indeed MN generally, can be frustrating. But also interesting as it gives an insight into the thinking of people you might not normally have conversations with. I am white, middle class and southern, though as a twist spent time in Asia, in a very race conscious country, have many Asian friends (easier for me to cross race divides) and speak an Asian language. I have also manage property and spent a decade organising care for my mother, which meant contact with and trust in quite a diverse (and wonderful) set of people. My family is London Irish, so my dad was of a generation when Irish Catholics were still othered, and not fully accepted.

So lazily I wish race would just go away. I am who I am, and want to just take people as I find them. But accept that this is naïve.

I personally would be very surprised if PP were racist. I think she is just for women and girls, regardless of race or creed.

littlbrowndog · 04/10/2021 14:00

It’s a good watch

Yeah trigpods

It’s the out and out lies that are told

PumpkinCrumble · 04/10/2021 14:50

I’m usually a fan of Triggernometry but I thought it was shit. Didn’t cover any new ground and seemed to descend into sex stereotypes are good because they teach boys to be “real men” and it’s all feminist’s fault. Hmm

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