Heads up. Posie on Triggernometry Tomorrow Sun 3rd 7pm

[Childrenofthestones]

Just a heads up Kellie Jay back for a second time in a new YT interview with the lads on Triggernometry. 😊👍

Yes, that was a real treat.

A good evening all round

Excellent

She is so wise - when she was talking about how nobody speaks about how awful the lockdown has been for older people, who have so little left of their life - for a start.
Baroness Nicholson was telling her she should stand as an MP. I wish she would.

I'll have to watch this later when I get the baby to bed.

This struck me, though:
Pp was soooo right about many mothers thinking their kids are trans, (not all, I know so many doing the absolute opposite, fighting for their kids, here and elsewhere.) But I'm in online bf, mothering and sling groups and their belief in this shit is horrifying. You cannot question it at all

One of my earliest encounters with younger mums on this (I am an old mum to have a young child) was in a FB parenting group a friend added me to. The mums were mostly very progressive types but there were some topics I felt I had some useful things to contribute. One of the things I noticed right away was how stuck many of them on non-gendered toys and such (which often but not always meant no pink or princesses for girls and putting boys in pink leggings.) They were constantly worried about their young kids statements about boys and girls too, even though they were developmentally normal over-generalizations . But if they ever had a child, especially a boy, who started to show more focused interest in opposite sex things, they were all over it being a trans kid and what they should do to let the kid live authentically. Not so much with girls although years later the friend who added me to the group announced that her 12 year old daughter was now a son.

It was all a little weird, but if you pushed back even a little they either ignored it or became very upset.

Lobster, yes I've seen exactly what you describe.

Increasingly now also younger girls. The ROGD that was among the teens is now creeping down to the tweens. You can't just be a "Tom boy" anymore.

It's a type of munchausens by proxy. More around how extra special the child therefore is needing more of a tiger mum than before.

I agree about it seems to be mothers encouraging and helping children to transition. Although I suppose we don't know about family dynamics and if what we are seeing is mothers doing the running around when both parents are committed to the transition.

It was annoying when she managed to interrupt herself when talking about the EqA 2010. I think it needs a radical overhaul so would have been interested to hear what she thinks.

Great interview. A few weird comments though, like it seems PP dismissed racism as not being an actual problem (the football : taking the knee conversation) and I felt that was off. Also her anecdote about single mothers in pyjamas was quite mean, especially considering the AWOL dads are the real problem.

Not watched the whole thing yet but I had similar thoughts about those points. I did think the discussion near the end about what value gender stereotypes might have in a society was interesting. I didn't agree with some of the points raised but it was interesting to hear the ideas.

Pippa Malmgren interview that @Triggerpod recommend as an under-recognised episode (AI, China, social credit etc. - fascinating):

Yea wasn't sure about all that 7H. As you say, it's not the visible single mum or mum in PJs, it's the non visible partner, usually male.

I don't know enough about the football references and this knee stuff beyond football fans have always had racist issues IMO.

Matthew Goodwin and others point out that if the left label / dismiss large communities who may have previously voted Labour, as racist and bigots, you're going to loose them. So I don't know if it's linked to all that.

One area that really needs to be made clearer is the impact of the trans umbrella on how things have changed in the past two decades. The GRA was passed for, an estimated at the time, 5000 transsexuals and there are now about 100 times that many transgender people. These are numbers for the UK. The additional several hundred thousand people are adult male transitioners, who have motivations not necessarily related to gender dysphoria, it's not clear how many of these there might be, and confused young people who are feeling unhappy and looking for an identity change to solve a whole range of problems, and who don't have gender dysphoria in its original sense, ie the driving force for the passing of the GRA. There are probably a lot of people in this category.

When viewed in this way it can then be explained that in the main transgender is not about gender dysphoria, "gender euphoria" can be introduced, and that, following from this, a transition involving a regime of drugs and surgery is something for a small minority of the estimated 300,000 to 500,000 transgender people. While the numbers are this high, most transgender people will not have any kind of surgical transition.

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and particularly how it touched on how this attitude impacts a whole range of issues in society.

One point I hadn’t previously considered much was that young people aren’t able to progress in the same way as their grandparents and parents (e.g. Kellie’s example of her parents being able to get married young, have kids and still buy a house in their early 20s, despite labour jobs). So perhaps this whole obsession with identity is something they CAN control. It’s quite sad looked at through that lens.

To the PP who spoke about taking the knee and racism. I think a lot of people feel it’s just woke virtue signalling. It’s so easy for clubs to do and nothing actually changes. Beyond looking progressive, everything stays the same. That’s my limited understanding at least.

I didn’t necessarily agree with everything, but it was refreshing to watch a conversation that allows open debate so people can explore topics without fear of being shouted at / shut down / cancelled. Amazing how rare that is these days.

I thought Posie was excellent, as always.

Agree that the 'maybe gender stereotypes are good?' pathway they went down was a bit odd. If you teach a little boy 'this is how boys behave' and he realises that he as an individual behaves in a different way, maybe he'll start thinking he must not be a boy, because he doesn't behave like one. I know that when I heard 'girls are X' when I was a child, I just thought it was stupid, because they were only saying it to me because I was clearly a girl and not-X, so they were wrong. Not all children would use that reasoning, though.

Sorry, this is a bit of a tangent, but it's just occurred to me that when most people use these normative stereotype statements, what they mean is ought to. Girls ought to like pink, so if you don't, you're bad at being a girl. Boys ought not to cry, so if you do, you're bad at being a boy. Get better at it. Just plain sexism. But with the is framing, to a literal-minded child, it becomes something else. Girls like pink - so if you don't, you're not a girl? And that would have been a harmless misinterpretation, if somewhat confusing to the child, until the rise of trans ideology.

I did love that she essentially said gender was nonsense, although feminists aren't really to blame for it! They used the word to mean 'sex role stereotypes' which is a useful thing to be able to talk about. The whole 'mysterious ineffable inner identity' thing wasn't a feminist usage, and I am guessing it came about when early TRAs started getting criticised for essentially saying that liking feminine sex role stereotypes made them literally women. Because it's blatantly sexist. An 'identity' obscures that sexism.

Yes, I thought it interesting when she pointed out these aren't "proper issues".

She's right, but I was a bit disappointed they didn't drill down into that. Identity issues are very much the peak of Maslow's hierarchy, which seems strange when, as a country, we have significant issues with strain on the infrastructure: power, water, transport, and housing. In trade terms, we need an export strategy and an industrial strategy (the balance of payments is horrific, for example), and we've a current problem with private equity buyouts and huge amounts of property being owned by foreign nationals as cheap bank accounts to park wealth. We are also heading into a horrific situation with public finance: we just have too many liabilities and don't bring in enough tax receipts (lockdown has made this matter very serious).

But what do we get? Endless focus on identity issues. It's like arguing over the colour if the curtain in a house that's falling down.

It’s a very good point. Identity issues should pale in comparison to all those huge more pressing issues which will affect everyone.

Question: I agree sex is biological and I agree gender stereotypes ultimately are not helpful. But there ARE some differences between men and women that go beyond XX/XY - what are these?

e.g. In my experience, women want to focus on their newborns and be supported to do so by their partners.

One area that really needs to be made clearer is the impact of the trans umbrella on how things have changed in the past two decades.

This is an extremely pertinent article about a particular doc that's been a big part of that, I hadn't seen it before.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

Thanks for the taking the knee possible explanation.

One point about taking the knee is that in the Qatar World Cup the England players will take the knee to show awareness of slavery from a couple of centuries back but will be making no comment whatsoever about the fact that the stadium they'll be playing in was constructed only a few years back under a regime of modern slavery. The hypocrisy is unmissable.

Yep that’s the point Kellie-Jay made re Qatar and it’s right.

Really good conversation, was interesting to hear the hosts talk about their thought process since the first interview with Posie too - from genuinely scared of the implications it could have on their careers, to 'no, these people are not telling the truth and we're not standing for that'.

When I started becoming aware of PP it was when she was getting a kicking for supposedly being in league with the US evangelical right. It made me think twice about her for the longest time before I understood it was just a smear tactic from people wanting to shut her up. Once you're over that hurdle it's a total no-brainer.

@nauticant

One point about taking the knee is that in the Qatar World Cup the England players will take the knee to show awareness of slavery from a couple of centuries back but will be making no comment whatsoever about the fact that the stadium they'll be playing in was constructed only a few years back under a regime of modern slavery. The hypocrisy is unmissable.

Ah thanks Naut. Yes hypocrisy.

Someone posted this on another thread yesterday

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kf1YKeq7lA

Trigonometry interviewing Matthew Goodwin, a politics professor and analyst, immediately after the last election. He sees the red wall rejecting identity politics and seeing social conservation as a very important factor in turning people away from Labour. Ie voters being influenced by the sort of things KJ has been advocating for a long time. Fascinating and worth a watch.

Yes me, it's a really good companion watch for Posie's interview.

And also alongside Helen Joyce's interview/ q and A at the Tory conference (? I think?) Yesterday.

The three absolutely ties up the mess of U.K. politics and trans ideology/ identity politics completely.

Well, by that measure PP is also a massive hypocrite if she will condemn Black people kneeling to protest the racism they experience without also taking on issues of migrants - when she herself has never spoken out about the conditions of African and Black migrant workers in the UK. I’m sorry, is she leading protests against the deportations of the Windrush generation? Why must Black people take on every social issue before THEY can protest but PP can sit there and invalidate the racism they experience when she does nothing to fight that racism herself?

The Black players for England experience absolutely vicious racial abuse as we all saw after Euros. Black players get bananas thrown at them when they play in many counties. If they want to kneel to draw attention to that, why is it PP’s right to call them hypocritical any more than men have the right to tell women what and how we should protest? By the way, I don’t see PP - or anyone on this board really - speaking out against the plight of, say, Ethiopian domestic workers in the Middle East either.

I doubt PP’s issue - as she appears on Triggernometry - with Black players kneeling is that they simply don’t take a Pan-Africanist enough approach to fighting racism. She’s not mad that Black players aren’t also acknowledging African migrant workers (since she never acknowledges them either). PP may be good on sims issues but she clearly doesn’t know much about race and racism. You can like what she says about women’s rights and acknowledge she doesn’t know what she’s talking about when it comes to how Black people experience racism and how they should respond.

Eh?!

If PP was to take on every cause, she would immediately be accused on being a rent a quote. She talks about women's rights.

The BLM thing is complicated, more complicated than racism being unacceptable. The football team I support, with a majority who are black or bi-racial, choose not to take the knee. Their decisions. Some opposing teams do. Some have a mix with some players taking the knee, others not. They do, however, have a strong video, played before each home match with individual players emphasising that racism has no place in football. And honestly, though I have heard many insults hurled at matches, I have never heard anything racist. (Not least because Gary Cahill gets the brunt of them, especially from London teams.) Wasn't it discovered that the bulk of the racist SM comments came from outside the UK? In the same was as much of the hate PP and other GC women receive could well come outside the UK. Yes there are injustices in other countries, but perhaps the most effective way to tackle these is to get things right here.

And HazelCarbyFan worth watching the link just posted, and which argues that many voters have not bought in to identity politics and sees them as divisive, when they want community. Interesting to have your thoughts.

many voters have not bought in to identity politics and sees them as divisive, when they want community.

Yes - I'm interested in the argument that social and cultural conservatism are different from conservative politics.

Firstly, there’s the notion that social conservatism is the bad form of political incorrectness and cultural conservatism the good form. In truth, both kinds of conservatism have their light and dark sides. Social conservatism can be harshly judgmental or it can be about upholding standards that encourage people to the right thing. As for cultural conservatism, that can be exclusive and xenophobic or it can be inclusive and patriotic.

The second myth that needs busting is that the working class voters who moved so decisively from Labour to Tory at the last election are culturally — but not socially — conservative. That’s far too simplistic. It’s true that the key issue of Brexit is one of collective identity. However, the parties of the centre-Left have also alienated their traditional supporters on issues on personal responsibility too, for instance law and order, not to mention work and welfare.

The third and final misconception is that the realignment we saw on the 12th is a sign of growing extremism. For the most part, this is not an extreme country. Nor is it one that is hostile to change — it just needs to be change at a human pace. That means a social conservatism that builds people up, not knocks them down; and a cultural conservatism that bring us together instead of tearing us apart.

unherd.com/thepost/the-difference-between-social-and-cultural-conservatism/

Was Posie not using this as a way of describing the cognitive dissonance that many on the left exhibit. "Taking the knee to show solidarity for those suffering from racism" and then being willing to go to Quatar to play football in stadia built by slave labour?