Do you ever doubt yourself?

[Firstdayofautumn]

Had my first (and probably last) experience of being honest about my views. I am questioning myself for defending the need for single sex spaces and wondering has my own experience meant I can't make rational judgements in this area. Am I irrational/dramatic/bigoted not to want men in the toilets. And then I think but my experiences are far from unusual and that's why single sex spaces exist.

What happened?

It is important to keep reexamining your opinion, and to read around all of the evidence that both supports and opposes your view. You need to be open to changing your mind if the evidence changes.

IMO current evidence supports your view.

I am questioning myself for defending the need for single sex spaces and wondering has my own experience meant I can't make rational judgements in this area.

The fact that many women feel the same way is enough.

Nobody is saying that unisex services shouldn’t also be available, just that single sex services must be available.

For various reasons that would be completely acceptable in other contexts, women need single sex services. I think people who argue that they don’t at best are simply saying that they don’t need those services so nobody should have them, and at worst are just self serving.

TRAs always drag the conversation round to toilets. It's the area they gain the most sympathy and traction.

I would focus on other things. Prisons. Communal changing rooms (without cubicles - like the kind you get in high street gyms). Rape crisis centres. Hospital wards.

I mean, I could be wrong. But given that nobody on the other side can ever give a sensible answer to 'what is a woman', I find it difficult to believe that I am. Maybe if people could start providing proper answers to my questions, I'd be persuaded to change my mind.

Am I irrational/dramatic/bigoted not to want men in the toilets.

The answer to this is definitely no you are not.

We have single-sex toilets for privacy and dignity of both women and men. There's no reason for men to use women's facilities.

I doubted myself for the first time yesterday but did some more reading and clarified my position. My concern is that I am well informed enough on both sides before I say something. I commented on something on Facebook then deleted it as I suddenly became scared that it would be seen by people who would confront me, and I also realised I had the wrong end of the stick about something. So now I am shutting up for a bit unless on an anonymous forum or well thought out email (sending one re the parliament document later).

The problem with the debate is the language is defined as something different by the different groups, TERF shrieking derails me. I need to step away from the social media side of this in my own name so have created an alt account so I can post without fear. I have no intention of being horrible, I just need the space to be safe.

After I posted yesterday I had a terrible almost panic that what if someone from my daughters gym group has a child who is trans and sees what I said and raises it with the school, it impacts her.

The fear makes me doubt myself as there is a lot at stake. We are not seen as sane and I have never been in the position where my view puts me and my family in potential danger.

I don’t understand the basis on which you are questioning the need for single sex spaces, OP.
It is already established that women suffer increased sexual assaults in mixed sex areas. That is beyond question.
So are you saying that it’s fine to accept a certain number of women being assaulted, and a greater number of eg Muslim and orthodox women being permanently excluded from society due to the lack of single sex facilities, and okay for teenage girls to be forced to share changing rooms and showers with naked penises, in order to…. what?
Appease the feelings of a tiny minority of aggressive TRAs who don’t even represent the views of all transgender people, let alone women?
Why do you think single sex spaces exist in the first place?

And for that view to be something as straightforward as the view that women need single sex spaces and sex and gender are different absolutely makes me feel like I am living on a carousel and can't get off.

Oh OP. Yep - I had a 'first and last' attempt to gently push back on some of this last year and it was so traumatising I thought 'never again'.

And it did the same to me - I was sure I was not making any errors in my thinking and I went on a desperate search to work out where I might have been wrong. Because all these sensible sane adults who are right about everything else disagree so vehemently with any slight critique of extremist gender ideology. If they just told me what the missing piece of the puzzle was then I could have adapted my thinking - but I can't because all the evidence points one way.

Following on from that I'm now surer than ever that there is no missing piece, it's not me who has made an error in my thinking it genuinely is the disappointing reality that people are thoughtless cowards. I try not to attribute malice where ignorance could account for it, but at this stage it's hard not to.

You're not wrong - but keep questioning. Listen to all perspectives on this. It's the only way to make sure you haven't made any mistakes. It's what everyone needs to do. (It will only deepen your conviction though)

@Babdoc wow thank you for highlighting the Muslim perspective, I hadn't even thought about that. That's incredibly important

Conversation in person that went very very badly, terfs bigot etc. Loss of company of otherwise like-minded people I really enjoyed time with. Honestly I would rather not say much more because sometimes the world isn't that big a place!
I'd rather focus on my own process. Posting isn't ideal but where else can you think about this these days.

It's very difficult to feel sane when you're being gaslit in real life.

Bit confused here. Could you explain? Do you now think all public areas should be mixed sex? Is this just about toilets? Are women's right to safety and privacy no longer valid if they are considered bigoted by some? A bit more explanation might be helpful?

No I don't.

It is absolutely not unreasonable to want single sex spaces.

But then I recognise gaslighting and manipulation these days more than when I was younger.

@Firstdayofautumn I've also realised that focusing on my own process and reading, researching is so important. My knee jerk outrage is correct in my mind but I now need to learn how to articulate it better and hit the situation where it hurts and where my skills lie ie drafting complaint letters, writing to the school.

Sorry cross post.

You're not wrong, OP, you're scared. And that's deliberate. Yelling and shouting at women for wanting to maintain single sex spaces is a massive overreaction. As is sending them threats and intimidating them. No one with an ounce of reason would see that as anything other than bullying.

I am questioning myself for defending the need for single sex spaces and wondering has my own experience meant I can't make rational judgements in this area.

Wanting single sex spaces because of your experience IS a rational judgment.

And it's one that very many women have made, hence the need for single sex spaces in the first place.

If you read the experiences of women in prison, rape refugees, or homeless shelters, who have encountered unexpected males, it's obvious to anyone why we need to maintain our single sex spaces.

If you're still not sure, ask the people you're speaking with whether they believe a male rapist should be in prison with women who can't escape. Their answer will tell you exactly who is the rational one.

Yes and no.

No, because GC beliefs are logical, there's no realistic argument against them and the behaviour of TRAs is beyond belief sometimes. The more I read the more angry and worried I feel.

Yes, because I'm fairly leftwing, my views have never been so out of step with friends who are politically similar. I've also never been afraid to state my views before.
But also because this is Mumsnet and the appalling unkind behaviour by some on this site, is shocking. My views are also out of step with quite a lot of people here, can't abide the snobbery, racism and anti- Americanism and I think do I want the same views as some of these people. ( I know there are wonderful people here too, but when the pile ons go on for post after post, it's difficult to believe, and I've felt self conscious and judged about things that I didn't even realise matter to other people).

What itallgoingtobefine says.

Always read extensively from both angles and from original sources. It is staggering how often we are told that this board is an echo chamber, yet we are the ones openly reading whatever we can find. We don’t need carefully regurgitated distillations that are deemed ‘safe’ for reading.

I always laugh when posters link up self-identified prominent trans activists as if they are thought leaders worthy of high esteem. When they list not researchers or academic leaders in their field, but twitter or youtube wannabes.

It just shows the lack of critical thinking capacity of some activists.

We have single-sex toilets for privacy and dignity of both women and men. There's no reason for men to use women's facilities.

Aside from their everyday use, women's toilets have an emergency function that most people don't think about much. They are effectively ubiquitous mini-shelters.

Women have to navigate a public space where 50% of the population are potential predators.

Not many men are dangerous, but a few are. Women's toilets have this function of being an escape route - a public space where men cannot enter without immediately outing themselves as having bad intentions. They give women a potential chance to separate themselves from a man without alerting him and ask for help from another woman. (Single-occupancy toilets are less suitable for this purpose - but at least with mobile phones there's the possibility to make a call. As long as they're private enough.)

This function is particularly important in places where women are likely to interact with unfamiliar men.

Withdrawing the social convention that males just cannot follow a woman into the toilet means eliminating the majority of public area escape routes for women from men. This should not be underestimated.

(And as to the question, yes I doubt myself all the time. But I also doubt other people. If I am wrong, then people need to make more convincing arguments to sway me. I'm not 100% certain what the best overall policy outcomes are, but I know the current situation is totally unacceptable for women.)

My knee jerk outrage is correct in my mind but I now need to learn how to articulate it better

Yes, I think this happens to us all irl.

This issue is so massive and far reaching, and it's upsetting, that it's quite difficult to remain calm in the teeth of minimisation, or disbelief.

I have had several women who a couple of years ago disagreed with me on this issue come to me recently and say they suddenly get it. I think JK Rowling speaking out so reasonably has helped and also the terrible behaviour of the activists how vile they are to her in response has really shocked a lot of people. I keep it low key but try to keep chipping away and hold my position because truth and reality are on our side.

Have a read if the new SportUk guidance and also listen to the science ofsport Ross Tucker. That will help you clarify your own position too. Both the report and Ross tucker underline that you can’t have both inclusion AND fairness and safety for women and girls. You have to choose. This is obviously just about sport but I think the idea. Is applicable in other areas too where rights clash. Some areas inclusion may be more important but other areas fairness might matter more. I would also throw in privacy and dignity too in addition to safety.

Conversation in person that went very very badly, terfs bigot etc. Loss of company of otherwise like-minded people I really enjoyed time with.

That sounds really tough. I can imagine you are feeling bad after that. I've only been called a bigot online by strangers, which doesn't really have any impact.

Do you mind me asking what age you are? I suspect younger people are more likely to react that way.

My thoughts are in overdrive this morning, like do I just need more therapy, do my own issues stop me accepting TWAW. Its really helpful to read the comments.