Do you ever doubt yourself?

[Firstdayofautumn]

Had my first (and probably last) experience of being honest about my views. I am questioning myself for defending the need for single sex spaces and wondering has my own experience meant I can't make rational judgements in this area. Am I irrational/dramatic/bigoted not to want men in the toilets. And then I think but my experiences are far from unusual and that's why single sex spaces exist.

@Datun yes it really is. I don't want to flare up at someone for them to dig their heels
in and start thinking I'm unreasonable as this is a long game and I need to chip away, listen, gently talk when it comes up instead of forcing it. Hard.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

It is important to keep reexamining your opinion, and to read around all of the evidence that both supports and opposes your view. You need to be open to changing your mind if the evidence changes.

IMO current evidence supports your view.

This

I am also wary of people who are not comfortable enough with their own view that they have to look at who else is expressing them to see if that opinion should be changed.

We see this all the time where people post that ‘right wing’ trope. While conveniently forgetting who Foucault was and some of the impacts queer theory is having on society today.

Be careful of purity spirals of any kind. If you are inclined to change your view because someone you don’t want to be aligned with has it, it could be an indication on how intolerant you are and how weak the foundations were on which you based your opinion.

Its always right to question your position. I dont think any women should be made to feel uncomfortable/unsafe in our dedicated spaces so that someone else can not feel those things in theirs. Its the bottom line I always go back to because we are not lesser.

As bad as I feel for transwomen, I think third spaces/services are a fair and sensible solution. I understand the argument about being outed, but honestly I think the majority are obvious, and its only 'be kind' that has led them to believe you can conceal maleness behind lipstick. Having a gender id is en vogue now, so many people will join them in that third space, and all will be especially kind whilst doing so.

One thing I dont quite understand is why the muslim community are not saying anything?

I know a lot of women who have spent time in prison. All of them are vulnerable, they have mental health problems and addictions. Most have had serious head injuries as a result of being assaulted. All of them have been raped or sexually assaulted as adults and were physically and / or sexually abused as children.

I don’t want to see any of them locked up in prison with a male rapist.

That doesn’t make me transphobic, irrational , dramatic or a bigot.

I’d like all the people who advocate this as a good idea to spent a few weeks in prison themselves with a rapist ( who is much larger and stronger than them ) and then come back and tell me about it. Then I will take their opinions more seriously.

Trans women aren't women, if they were they wouldn't be trans would they?

You don't have to accept nonsense.

They are people worthy of respect like all people, but that doesn't make them women.

I’m sorry you’re struggling OP. I get it that you can sometimes feel like you’re going a bit mad with it all. And if you just went along with it, life would be easier. But you can’t (or at least I can’t) because it doesn’t make sense, and because actual harm is being done on the back of this.

But it hurts that people you know and respect, and would otherwise have thought of as intelligent and rational, are embracing this. And when you get called a bigot or hateful by people you know or love, it’s quite shocking, because you know that you are not a bad person.
And if only they would look behind the curtain, scratch the surface, they would see that it’s rotten underneath.

But for some reason they don’t want to see, don’t want to know, or at least don’t want to acknowledge. Maybe because they don’t have to - if they’re men it doesn’t affect them in the same way.

Actually the sports council report on how they came to their decision this week makes for interesting reading.

It shows the degree of coercion that is happening in women’s lives to stop them discussing this. When our elite women in sport and high level coaches and policy makers are not able to discuss their opinions on whether males should be included in the female sports category because they will then lose their jobs and their team selection, it is abhorrent.

What other major decisions have allowed that level of coercion to enable it to happen?

And let’s not forget that there is a potential for women to die, to suffer life limiting and shortening injuries above the risk they be willing to accept. This is not a low risk decision and yet it is being forced through in many sports.

How is that being on the right side of history?

No. I used to - I thought maybe I'd missed something. That I was over-reacting.

But then I learned about -

Women being raped in the female estate by transwomen sexual offenders and the MOJ basically shrugging it off.

Rape survivors being branded bigots for wanting to be able to request a female examiner.

Women having their skulls cracked open in sporting activities. Far higher chances of injury to women being shrugged off by sporting federations.

Women being sacked from employment for stating facts we know to be true. There is no evidence otherwise.

The reason this shit has gotten so far is frankly because its so unbelievable that the general public simply don't believe it's happening. It has relied on the chilling effect and screaming down anyone who disagrees. TRA's focus on toilets because it's easy to ridicule. It's a much wider issue.

[quote HummingBeeBox]@Datun yes it really is. I don't want to flare up at someone for them to dig their heels
in and start thinking I'm unreasonable as this is a long game and I need to chip away, listen, gently talk when it comes up instead of forcing it. Hard. [/quote]
I hear you.

One of the side-effects of this issue is that it exposes you to feminism. Which is all well and good if you have been embracing feminism all your life, but if it's something that has been on the periphery of your experience, then it's a massive eye-opener.

And, it only increases the outrage, as once the scales fall you never see the world in the same light again.

The saying is that the truth of feminism will first of all piss you off, and then it will set you free.

Pissed off women, act pissed off.

It's unavoidable. 😁

@Datun the be kind message doesn't help as pissed off women are just seen as difficult and mean.

I'm in a tightrope alright. Scales fallen, see things everywhere but am scared now of the people who don't.

I imagine shortly when we have driven ourselves up the wall and someone is confronted with a self ID intact male in their changing space they'll say oh! That's what BeeBox was talking about! Why didn't I see it?!

I hope it doesn't happen too late.

It's so crazy that nobody thinks it's happening. I feel on the right side of history and it feels like a volcano rumbling with us all holding it in, simmering.

Not really. Ive always focussed on safeguarding which isnt personal.

I constantly re-examin most of my opinions daily. I have never been presented with any kind of arguement that gets anywhere near justifying why women should be locked up with rapists, deniyed sporting achievment and the social advancement that comes with it and should not have the ability to organise as a seperate class of people from men. And Iv asked loads of times.

All these rights men have, why not women?

It's a much wider issue.

For me the the wider issue is the enforcement of the doctrine of ‘I am what I say I am and you can’t question me’ as though this is somehow a way to promote equality.

‘Trans rights’ are impossible to define because ‘trans’ is a subjective quality that includes people who are completely gender conforming.

All we can talk about is the impact of changes to law and policy on women.

@Firstdayofautumn

My thoughts are in overdrive this morning, like do I just need more therapy, do my own issues stop me accepting TWAW. Its really helpful to read the comments.

If you have had an experience that makes you feel particularly strongly about female only spaces, that's a perfectly valid reason. The answer isn't to work on yourself until you override your internal sense of safety in order to please others. That's abusive. Forcing people to move their boundaries is abusive. If you were afraid of heights I wouldnt force you to walk over a high bridge, even if it was perfectly safe, insisting you have to just work on it. If you had been bitten by a dog and were now scared of dogs, I wouldn't make you look after mine and belittle your fear with "not all dogs will bite, mine doesn't" because you have a trauma fear response and you don't know which dogs bite and which don't. If you've been hurt by a man, there's times you don't feel safe around them - vulnerable situations such as toileting and dressing.

Third spaces are the obvious option, with a move towards new buildings having entirely contained toilets (loo, sink and mirror in one lockable space) which can then be unisex.

That's unlikely to happen as it's expensive so instead women will be pushed to bear the cost.

'modest doubt is the beacon of the wise' (Shakespeare)

and

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts." (B Russell)

OP, I don't know what was said in your conversation, but I think it's very telling to look at a discussion and see if there is one side that is using insults and ad hominem attacks, rather than discussing the points.

In my experience, whoever is flinging insults has already lost the argument.

OP, has somebody explained to you why they believe TWAW?

If it makes sense please share here! We have been asking that question for a very long time and never had an explanation.

Not for one second.

It isn't about toilets. That's a distraction.
It isn't about a tiny minority. They use that to gaslight.

There is no way to legally differentiate between males and males who identify as women, especially if we have self ID because it then becomes just their word.

Because of this it isn't about a tiny minority, it's about the complete removal of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING female only. It's no males or ALL males.

We will no longer be allowed to advocate for ourselves politically as a sex class with our own unique needs because the ability to even legally name ourselves as separate to males will be taken away.

We are being told that the safety, privacy and dignity of female people is irrelevant. We don't even deserve to be seen as human.

The recent thread where the uni decided, despite pretending to keep some single sex toilets, that the male students must be allowed to use whatever facilities 'they feel most comfortable in'. No fucks given to the female students not comfortable with their single sex safe spaces being taken away.

Now in Scotland, women are told it's a HATE CRIME to even advocate for the rights of females as a sex class.

Women are simply asking that the actual current laws and protections already in place are actually used and acted on.

When sports bodies are being told they must choose whether to prioritise males or females in FEMALE sports!! How the fuck is this even a discussion?

Humans cannot change sex. Not ever. No lady brains. No drugs or surgery.

Gender IS NOT sex. So why the fuck are we having our SEX based protections and rights stripped away because some males have entirely subjective, completely unprovable feelings of 'gender'?

How can you feel a sex role stereotypes?
Gender isn't innate. That's a religious belief of 0.6% of the population who seem to have been given total control over everything.

There is not one coherent, consistent, logical, rational definition of 'gender' 'gender identity' or gender identity ideology.

It's always good to re-examine

Why do we have single sex spaces ?
Because without them women were less likely to participate fully in society

Is that still a problem?
Certainly women are not fully participate in society
Women are still underrepresented in society , only 220 female mps
Women are still expected to change their behaviour to avoid assault

Do single sex spaces help?
Women say so ( and the underrepresented groups should always be listened to not have solutions imposed )

Since a woman's word is rarely believed
Huge numbers of women have suffered sexual assault and feel beyond uncomfortable in vulnerable situations ( where they might be half dressed )
Women like a touch of privacy when on their period , especially if they have a tendency to flood

Yes, all the time.

• I see political parties that I've always voted for supporting self ID
• Authors who I've loved reading saying TWAW
• People who I've admired stating that GC views are bigoted
• Newspaper I've read for decades printing trans ideology as fact
• Longtime friends who I cannot talk to about this
• There are those I agree with on almost everything else who I hugely disagree with about this
• organisations I've strongly supported in the past but now describe me as hateful

So yes, I sometimes doubt myself. I go through the arguments again. I check for errors in my thinking. I look at the same situation from other points of view ...

There are usually a couple of things that reassure me that my thinking is sound:
The fact that TWAW is a clearly incorrect and ludicrous statement
That male bodied people cannot compete fairly against female bodied people
That 'acceptance without exception' includes Jessica Yaniv
McKinnon's smug. chubby face as he celebrates an easy victory over an elite athlete
That nobody believed any of this stuff until 6 years ago, yet we're now supposed to accept all of it
'No debate'
That a 19 year old male was given the position of women's officer
The panicked, snivelling, hypocritical bilge that politicians spout when asked the simple question 'what is a woman?'

Yes I doubt myself, Yes I check. I'm even going to read Shon Faye's book. So far I've found little that makes me think I might be wrong about this.

No I never doubt myself, I know there's a real need for single sex spaces and women are entitled to them. I also know with no doubt who is a woman and who isn't. No amount of gaslighting will change that.

I was thinking the other day that yes, actually we do have to take a step back and look at the function of these single sex spaces.

They are just places for women to pee, to change, to recover - apart from the male sex for reasons that until recently were completely uncontroversial.

What they are NOT is a place for people to have their gender validated.

I think a lot of blame rests on the profession who decided that tests such as "living as a woman" (wtf?) would be suitable for deciding who was "true trans" and who wasn't.

How dare they use our spaces as some kind of who dares wins game?

Let's get back to their original functions, third space for those that need them.

I feel i have been declared unwise for my lack of doubt I do re-examine and listen to other views but as yet they havent made me change my mind.

Although really one only need re-examine with fresh evidence

And evidence to support a change is in distinctly short supply

Actually, in a clearer headspace, most of this I know - but helps to have it set out so clearly. I haven't ever pulled all my thoughts together as well as posters here (If only I had been able to say any of it!!! - annoyingly shouty behaviour knocks out my thinking altogether and I just wanted out).

Sorry Merrymouse, no answer but definitely I heard biology mentioned in that it proves TWAW. I have no idea where that was going.