Do you ever doubt yourself?

[Firstdayofautumn]

Had my first (and probably last) experience of being honest about my views. I am questioning myself for defending the need for single sex spaces and wondering has my own experience meant I can't make rational judgements in this area. Am I irrational/dramatic/bigoted not to want men in the toilets. And then I think but my experiences are far from unusual and that's why single sex spaces exist.

Yes, very similar to undercover’s list of things, I go over and over the reasons I think what I think and how I arrived there, and I listen to the genderism arguments and see if I think they make sense, rather than blocking them out. I come back to the same position mainly because it just does not make sense according to all the scientific, empirical and logical processes I can run it through. And those who want to argue the other side never seem to have arguments.

That tells me it’s essentially a faith-based position, which is fine and I can respect people’s wish to believe it, but only if it’s treated as a faith and not used to control me or imposed on me.

The other thing that seems ridiculous to me is that we don’t accept the same claims about things like race, age, height, disability etc and yet they are equally about biological reality and in some cases biological disadvantage and risk. Everyone can see why we don’t let adult men self-ID as 7-year-olds, go to primary school and join a Scout camp and sleep in a tent with little boys, while telling them how stunning and brave and great at playing with Lego they are. Everyone can see the obvious and horrendous risks involved there and that of course predators would take advantage.

Sex is the one thing where for IMO historical reasons and because of misogyny, we’re supposed to “believe” this obvious massive lie.

See I’m getting annoyed again having just thought it through again for this post :o

Sorry Merrymouse, no answer but definitely I heard biology mentioned in that it proves TWAW. I have no idea where that was going.

Usually it's "if some men are different from other men, in a way that vaguely resembles a typical woman, then we should call them women".

Doesn't sound ideal for 5'6" men or gay men, but what do I know?

And odd that only "woman" gets this treatment. Carrots don't. They're not "carrots, or anything conical and orange".

Although conceivably there could be some subgroup of men that are for certain purposes given a pass to certain currently-female-only things. You could have that discussion, in theory. But only if you could actually define that subgroup of men, and have some objective way of identifying whether a man was part of that group or not, and discuss what specific rights.

Sport is currently one of those areas: "any man with under 5/10 nmol/l testosterone". But we've now shown that isn't fair, and are pushing back. As is possible, because we've actually got something concrete to discuss.

But at the minute the access rights demanded in lots of cases are "any man, on demand". Which is dead in the water, at least as far as women's interests are concerned.

Since I had my eyes opened to this issue (which I think was when Caitlyn Jenner won a 'Woman of the Year' award and I was like wait.... What?!) I have never really doubted myself on it. I have read lots of opposing views, I am always reading TRA twitter as well and articles linked from there, plus I do like to try and engage in good faith arguments on here from opposing views.

There are certain fundamental questions that would need to be answered satisfactorily for me to begin to even think about changing my mind.

What is a woman?

What is a transwoman and on what basis are transwomen women?

What does it actually mean to be trans - how is that definition enshrined in law?

98% of sexual and physical violence is perpetrated by males, males as a class are 'high risk' women are 'low risk'. This is why my husband, despite being no threat to women, is not allowed in female spaces. So at what objective point, upon which law and policy can be made, does a male who identifies as a woman come out of the high risk category of male and into the low risk category of female? Full SRS, breast implants, hormones, make up, long hair and dresses? Or just their declaration that they are a woman?

Describe what it means to have a 'female gender identity' without mentioning any stereotypes about women.

Why should a male be allowed to go to a female prison of that's what he wants to do because of his 'identity'? What is the justification for that?

Why do women's sense of comfort and privacy depend solely upon how a man in her presence feels? If a man who 'identified as a man' walked into a female changing room, the women in there would have the right to feel anxious, uncomfortable and want to challenge him and ask him to leave. If a male walked into a female changing room and he had a 'female gender identity' they wouldn't have the right to any of these things, and would in fact be painted as disgusting and bigoted. So what women are allowed to feel about a given situation depends entirely on how the male in the presence feels at the time. How is this anything other than total male dominance and misogyny?

I have never seen any of the above questions answered any where near satisfactorily enough for me to even begin changing my mind of this.

Was the discussion about the need for single sex spaces or about who should be included in single sex spaces? I think they are related but different issues.

Perhaps the discussion was about whether we need single sex or single gender spaces? Not many TRAs what single gender spaces because of the multitude of genders. Also, there are no coherent arguments as to why society ever needs to be separated because of gender.

I have heard very few TRAs argue for abolishing sex segregated facilities and wanting everything unisex, the arguments for sex segregation are sex based, they then want admission to be determined by gender identity. 🙄🤷‍♀️

I do and tbh it’s affecting my MH. I doubt myself because it’s so lonely being gc. I’m out and have my picture on Twitter but there’s a permanent threat that it’ll blow up very emotionally at work (everyone has declared pronouns) and I listened to my boss, (white straight male, broadly supportive of the single sex service I work in) trying to get rid of a supplier by fobbing the supplier off with, ‘you need to talk to finance, but they’re off today they’ll be back tomorrow you can send them an email the person’s email is [email protected].”
WTF was that about?! It made me feel paranoid and very wrong side of history.

I never doubt it

No one I know believes that TWAW

not one person

I don’t overthink it

One of the side-effects of this issue is that it exposes you to feminism. Which is all well and good if you have been embracing feminism all your life, but if it's something that has been on the periphery of your experience, then it's a massive eye-opener.

And, it only increases the outrage, as once the scales fall you never see the world in the same light again.

The saying is that the truth of feminism will first of all piss you off, and then it will set you free.

@Datun this resonates so strongly for me.

"The reason this shit has gotten so far is frankly because its so unbelievable that the general public simply don't believe it's happening"

Yep, @waitwhat23 because it's the likes of the Mail and the Times that are covering it and the likes of the Guardian are either ignoring it or (more likely) pushing the narrative that it's hateful bigots making shit up.

A majority of my friends read the Guardian, they wouldn't believe a story about penises in women's prisons if it appeared in the Mail. They'd handwave it away as being made up and despair at the people commenting BTL being sucked in by a non- story. And I get that. I've done the same myself - assumed that because a particular media was politically opposed to me, they were lying.

I never doubt it either. When you're right, you're right.

There hasn't been a single thing that has made me doubt it, either. From no definitions, to threats, to the squirming of politicians when they're put on the spot, the complete lack of logic, the contradictions, the desperate censorship and, of course, the knowledge that I, as a woman, and as a fully fledged member of the human race have every right to be heard, my concerns to be acknowledged, openly discussed, and acted upon if necessary.

Sometimes I think it helps to consider your feelings around the edges of the topic. Mixed sex toilets in public place like a railway station or shopping centre at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon probably feels OK because there are lots of people around. How about when you’re catching the last train home and you’re the only woman on a near deserted platform? An obviously male TW in your ward might be uncomfortable and impacting on you privacy when it’s a full ward and you are surrounded by women who can help in an emergency. How about an overnight when you are are the only two on the ward and there empty beds around you (unlikely I know, but you get my point) and the nurses’ station is out of view. There are many women who have jobs and commitments that take them out of the home when the streets and public places are deserted, like early morning office cleaners or bus drivers getting off a late shift. They need the safety of single sex toilets/changing facilities and the ability to challenge a male in their vicinity without fear of sanction. It’s a basic requirement for the safety of all women, especially the ones at the fringes of the day and society.

Recently I saw some videos filmed at a certain political gathering. In one, a woman had her speech cut short for speaking in support of a female MP who felt too unsafe to attend. The second showed an obviously male person with long hair and no female characteristics whatsoever ranting that she (reluctant to use that term) had been transphobically abused in the toilets. Her speech was not only allowed but she received a standing ovation for banging on about poor oppressed trans people.
She might believe she's a woman, but I can't believe anyone else in the room did really. Why are all these people pretending? It's gone far beyond being kind. This person came across as really unpleasant, not someone who deserved support. Can't believe that so many women, too, want to give away the safe spaces of their mothers, daughters and children.
I never think I'm on the wrong side. I'm on the side of women.

@BettyFilous brilliant way of looking at it, thank you

merrymouse
For me the the wider issue is the enforcement of the doctrine of ‘I am what I say I am and you can’t question me’ as though this is somehow a way to promote equality.

Yes, this is the mindfuck. The lovely Helen Joyce explained it really well in her recent appearance at the Tory public meeting with Baroness Nicholson - apologies for the really long quote:

"Queer theory puts inordinate emphasis on language, because if you insist that things are what they are not, if you insist that male people can be female, and female people can be male, and that what someone says about themselves must be believed, then you must control speech.

And queer theory sees that as the way to remake the world; that if we insist that everybody calls a man who want's to be a woman a woman, we have done something liberatory, we have made a world in which it is not restrictive to be a woman or restrictive to be a man.

Now, somebody who believes in 19th century classic liberalism, or just indeed in material reality, does exactly the opposite thing, they say 'I'm a female, that's just a given, I was conceived that way, it's not going to stop me doing what I want, and what I like and what I'm capable of, and I'm going to stand up for other female people who are oppressed'.

(Queer theory) is the opposite of that, it's saying the words are the reality and that reality has to be shoehorned into them, and it's ultimately very totalitarian, because it requires you to control everybody's speech, so that's why this issue specifically is so important in the free speech arena...they are remaking the world by remaking language."

I had horrible doubts for the first 6 months but you cannot unsee it. I don’t see how anyone could argue with Prisons, sports and lesbian groups.

It’s also the wider censorship. Medicine. Literature. Podcasts. Police. University’s. It’s terrifying the penalty for wrong think.

One thing I have noticed at least is that comedians have started to take the piss a bit more about people overdoing oppression, censorship and about white people overcompensating missing the real point and causing more issues.

Can't believe that so many women, too, want to give away the safe spaces of their mothers, daughters and children.

The irony is that it betrays a very “I’m alright Jack” mindset which is the opposite of what is supposed to be the traditional perspective of that party.

@ArtemesiaK

Recently I saw some videos filmed at a certain political gathering. In one, a woman had her speech cut short for speaking in support of a female MP who felt too unsafe to attend. The second showed an obviously male person with long hair and no female characteristics whatsoever ranting that she (reluctant to use that term) had been transphobically abused in the toilets. Her speech was not only allowed but she received a standing ovation for banging on about poor oppressed trans people. She might believe she's a woman, but I can't believe anyone else in the room did really. Why are all these people pretending? It's gone far beyond being kind. This person came across as really unpleasant, not someone who deserved support. Can't believe that so many women, too, want to give away the safe spaces of their mothers, daughters and children. I never think I'm on the wrong side. I'm on the side of women.

I agree - it's so frustrating that many of those who gave the round of applause and standing ovation were probably women.

This person was (rightly) called out for being somewhere they shouldn't have been, in the women's toilets. That is the issue, they were in a space that was not designated for them. They were in the wrong. And yet they are celebrated. This is all an ego trip for them.

How many of those women would have celebrated a man in the women's toilets in any other circumstance? Not many. But because of the magical powers of 'trans' this person is now welcomed through the door? It's madness.

Do I ever doubt the fact that biological sex is real and binary, and that 'gender identity' is no more than a collection of stereotypes? No, not for one moment. Do I ever doubt the fact that the law should be based on truth, not on falsehood or on feelz? No, not for one moment.

The questions of how we deal with the demands and rights of people who feel they are the opposite sex (and those who claim to feel that) may be complex, but any solutions to them must be based on acceptance of the above facts.

How many of those women would have celebrated a man in the women's toilets in any other circumstance? Not many. But because of the magical powers of 'trans' this person is now welcomed through the door? It's madness.

I think many would claim not to care, but what they can’t do is make the mental leap to understand why other women care, which again is ironic given the circumstances.

@Diaryofamadwoman

It's very difficult to feel sane when you're being gaslit in real life.

This. We're in a period of mass gaslighting and it's very hard to keep your head.

Yes, gaslighting everywhere. It's so difficult.

Yes, I do doubt myself sometimes. According to trans activists on Twitter, the scientific consensus is that TWAW and TMAM. Apparently GC feminists don’t understand biology above GCSE level and that trans people have brain structures similar to that of the sex they identify as.

I know about DSDs, but I’m finding it harder to make sense of the research into brain structures. Yes, the size of a particular part of the brain might on average be larger in a male than a female. But if the range is very wide and overlapping, does this mean much?

I might be very wrong, but I get the impression that trying to predict a person’s sex from their brain structure is like trying to predict a person’s sex solely from their height. If someone can sum up these research findings for me, I’d be grateful.

Another thing puzzles me. If an MRI scan of the brain could diagnose a person as being trans or non-binary, why isn’t this being used to greatly shorten the process of gender recognition? Why are some trans activists calling for the complete opposite - self ID?

Something else that helps is when I see what people - real people - actually think.
You’d guess that the readership of the Guardian would be broadly supportive of TRA ideology as the paper has been pushing it so hard for the last few years. However, take a look at the comments beneath their twitter post about ‘pregnant people’. They are massively against the language used by the Guardian. There are very few comments that could be described as hateful (well, stonewall and oj think everything is hateful, but not by anybody else), but comment after comment stating that men cannot get pregnant, that the term should be ‘pregnant women’.

Sometimes it feels lonely being GC, and the TRAs certainly try to make out we're a weird little minority, but whenever I see unfiltered opinions the vast majority - while having no problem with trans people - are strongly opposed to trans ideology.