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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

what does it mean "live as a woman"?

999 replies

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 13:23

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

OP posts:
Eucalyptustrees · 05/10/2021 21:44

I'm trying to determine the inflection point where femaleness is defined. It's clearly extremely important to posters on this thread! This seems like it lies at the very core of the issue being discussed here - how do we define femaleness? Is it genetic? Primary sex characteristics? Socialisation? The combination of all three?

Those meetings you mentioned up thread are all starting to make sense now.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2021 21:54

If a woman says "no" she deserves to be listened to. Any "no", from any woman, at any time, in any situation. If you don't think a woman's "no" deserves to be heard then I really don't see that you are any different from a rapist.

Which is what I told my employer. Which is why I'm in trouble.

I'm bloody right, though.

You are Thanks

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 05/10/2021 22:07

images.app.goo.gl/NjkRV3YeRnbpZxTw6

Thanks, Eresh. As this thread has gone on (and on) I realised that there is a whole bunch of women who are like me and thinking "no, thank you".

No.

I say no.

A civilised society would listen to my no and those of all the other women.

OP posts:
WomaninBoots · 05/10/2021 22:10

vivarium... you are bloody right.

wincarwoo · 05/10/2021 22:19

You say the matter is complex - I agree! It's extremely complex! I'm trying to find a workable definition we can use in discussion.*

This is beyond parody now. There is literally no need for you to scrabble about for some sort of gaslighting definition of a woman when all women know exactly what one is.

Datun · 05/10/2021 22:20

You say the matter is complex - I agree! It's extremely complex! I'm trying to find a workable definition we can use in discussion.

Lol I'm not sure who you think you're talking to? But almost all the women here absolutely realise that the word woman must be decoupled from her biology in order that men can claim it.

Top tip, you're not the first person to attempt this. There's not a single transwomen who has come on here, week in, week out, who hasn't attempted to do it.

It's all of a kind with Munroe Bergdorf telling women, on their own march mind you, that they shouldn't centre their biology because it's 'othering'.

Well dur.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2021 22:33

It is apparent the destabilisation of the language used to describe women is vital for this constant shoehorning of males.

But it is unsurprising to see the twisting. We have had a deeply buried essence in the brain, the constant utilisation of other medical conditions, and the complexity of femaleness and when can a male be sufficiently female, to reach an inflection point, and of course, the inclusion of socialisation on femaleness.

None of it is new to these boards though.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 05/10/2021 22:43

There is no "inflection point" for "femaleness". Something or someone who is a mammal is either female or is male.

This! Heavens to Betsy, the two sex classes in mammals are best depicted as a discrete bar chart, not a graphical function!

RedDogsBeg · 05/10/2021 22:44

@somethinginoffensive

I'm trying to find a workable definition we can use in discussion.

No you are not. You are trying to coerce women into a definition of woman that includes you.

Hit the nail on the head.

A transwoman is not a woman nor a subset of woman.

BatmansBat · 05/10/2021 22:48

I am actually beginning to find all this creepy.

Most women here want

a) not to be forced to pretend to believe something they don’t
b) males to stay out of single sex spaces
c) children not to be medicalised and irrevocably changed with hormones etc.

If we get this, everyone can get along and we can all live out best lives. These requests are very reasonable.

But people born with penises just cannot accept this. Women’s “no” is a starting point for negotiations. It is creepy and wrong. I say no. No, no, no.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2021 22:56

You say the matter is complex - I agree! It's extremely complex! I'm trying to find a workable definition we can use in discussion.

none of the women here needs to look for a workable definition. We are the definition.

Women’s “no” is a starting point for negotiations - eep.

You are trying to coerce women into a definition of woman that includes you. - yep.

Datun · 05/10/2021 23:14

I'm trying to find a workable definition we can use in discussion.

Well, I guess at least it's honest.

It's the height of enough though. Trying to find an alternative definition of a woman that will actually exclude all manner of women from their own spaces.

WouldBeGood · 05/10/2021 23:26

Very reasonable @BatmansBat

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 06/10/2021 00:08

@BatmansBat yes!

Gosh, I hadn't thought about it all like this before, but, yes, it's just CREEPY.

I've been able to spot creepy male behaviour since I was first subjected to it at the age of about 12.

I'm 50.

I'm quite good at it, I thought. And yet, here I am, sucked into BeFuckingNice because the creepy fecker has plucked eyebrows.

WHY? Why should I be nice? that person is trying to take my rights away. They don't deserve nice, and they really, at the very least, should have a decent explanation about why they need MY RIGHTS. Instead, all I see is a bunch of mumbo jumbo about how hard it is have some amorphous gender feelings which I simply don't understand on any level and importantly, which don't seem to have any bearing at all on why women in jail deserve to be raped because a convicted rapist/paedophile bought a wig.

No.

Butterfly, I do appreciate your contribution to the thread, and I'm sure this is not easy to read, but, no. The creepy feckers have ruined it for you. I won't let them ruin it for me. I'll be keeping my single sex spaces.

OP posts:
ButterflyHatched · 06/10/2021 00:16

@Datun

I'm trying to find a workable definition we can use in discussion.

Well, I guess at least it's honest.

It's the height of enough though. Trying to find an alternative definition of a woman that will actually exclude all manner of women from their own spaces.

I've given the definition that makes the most sense to me, and that was rejected in favour of citing biological definitions that quote the term female. Fair enough.

So, using those same biological principles, I'm trying to work out where the essential defining component of femaleness is. It doesn't seem to just be genetic, as people have (rightly) stated that womanhood should not exclude XY karyotype female phenotype people.

We've also rejected the notion of gender identity as a meaningful concept, so simply asking people doesn't seem to be allowed.

Socialisation also seems to be significant, though not alone enough for the definition?

Where does that leave us? Female phenotype at birth alongside lifelong socialisation as a woman?

334bu · 06/10/2021 00:21

Where does that leave us? Female phenotype at birth alongside lifelong socialisation as a woman?

Female sex at birth is enough.

ButterflyHatched · 06/10/2021 00:22

[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]**@BatmansBat yes!

Gosh, I hadn't thought about it all like this before, but, yes, it's just CREEPY.

I've been able to spot creepy male behaviour since I was first subjected to it at the age of about 12.

I'm 50.

I'm quite good at it, I thought. And yet, here I am, sucked into BeFuckingNice because the creepy fecker has plucked eyebrows.

WHY? Why should I be nice? that person is trying to take my rights away. They don't deserve nice, and they really, at the very least, should have a decent explanation about why they need MY RIGHTS. Instead, all I see is a bunch of mumbo jumbo about how hard it is have some amorphous gender feelings which I simply don't understand on any level and importantly, which don't seem to have any bearing at all on why women in jail deserve to be raped because a convicted rapist/paedophile bought a wig.

No.

Butterfly, I do appreciate your contribution to the thread, and I'm sure this is not easy to read, but, no. The creepy feckers have ruined it for you. I won't let them ruin it for me. I'll be keeping my single sex spaces.[/quote]
That's fair. Thanks for the positive engagement and enduring patience and good humour when discussing a contentious subject that's close to your heart - I think this has been quite a rewarding discussion.

(Sorry, posted the last response just before I saw this - don't feel you have to engage if you'd prefer not to)

NiceGerbil · 06/10/2021 03:10

Butterfly-

'I'm trying to determine the inflection point where femaleness is defined. It's clearly extremely important to posters on this thread! This seems like it lies at the very core of the issue being discussed here - how do we define femaleness? Is it genetic? Primary sex characteristics? Socialisation? The combination of all three?

You say the matter is complex - I agree! It's extremely complex! I'm trying to find a workable definition we can use in discussion.'

Do you believe that when eg

The Taliban make rules for women and girls

Or

An attack on a village results in

  • boys being taken to force into being child soldiers
  • girls being taken to be 'married' to men in the group who attacked

That due to this complexity the attackers could well be wrong about who they will ' marry' and rape.
And who will be forced to fight for them?

How would you explain the ability of the kidnappers to know which children were which sex so easily and accurately?

Really interested in your thoughts.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/10/2021 03:58

Skip to content

An Open Letter To the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

Imagine you’re standing at a train station.

Across from you, you see another man step across the tracks. He’s distracted, too busy to take the long way around, too lost in his phone to notice where he’s going. You turn your head the other way and see the train, barreling towards him as he walks into its path.

What do you do? The answer is obvious, hopefully: You scream, you shout, you wave your arms and make a scene. And if he still doesn’t notice, still doesn’t look up from his phone, you jump down and push him off those tracks yourself. Maybe you’re not that brave in reality. But at the very least you hope that’s what you’d do, right?

And why is that? Why would you go through all that effort? Because, consciously or not, you understand Newton’s laws. You understand that force is equal to mass times acceleration, that a very heavy thing moving very fast can destroy a fragile human body in an instant. You do what you can to get that man off the tracks because you know that a life depends on it.

But did you know that Newton’s laws are hardly stable? That they are mere approximations, liable to break down in all sorts of situations? It’s true. Newtonian physics can’t predict the way light bends on its way through the solar system, or how an electron might spin around an atom’s core. Even something as mundane as your cellphone relies on a far more sophisticated model. While those simple equations you learned in junior high school might get you through the day, the truth is much more complicated.

Now, here’s a question: Knowing that, do you change what you yell to the man on the tracks? After all, “The train is coming towards you!” is technically inaccurate. Einstein showed us that movement is relative; in a sense, it’s just as reasonable to say that the man is hurtling towards a stationary train. You’ve got a few seconds left. Do you take the time to capture the nuance?

Physics may be the least of your problems, by the way. Biology is just as messy. You’re probably worried that the man will end up dead, smashed to pieces or ground into bits. But what does it mean to be alive or dead anyway? Many scientists would tell you that no single criteria exists to distinguish inanimate and animate matter. Some entities, like a virus or a prion, even shatter the binary completely. And if you can’t even explainwhythe man on the tracks is alive, what sense does it make to worry about keeping him that way?

And of course, all of this is beside the point if we don’t know what makes something right or wrong in the first place. Dozens and dozens of complex ethical questions exist without any agreed-upon answer, and the foundations of morality are endlessly debated. Should you do anything to help the man at all? You can imagine situations where inaction is best; perhaps he’s a serial killer, or some other unrepentant monster. Perhaps no moral truths exist, and your effort to save him is completely irrational. Can you be sure your intervention is truly the right thing to do, if you can’t even define what “right” means in the first place?

This certainly is a complex matter —a complex obligation, a complex process, a complex result. Presumably, you’ll want to make sure your warning is in line with all the latest quantum theory. You’ll want to figure out just what you mean by “life” and “death” too. And it wouldn’t hurt to track down the nearest priest or philosophy professor to elaborate the finer points of ethics. Nuance, accuracy, and a critical eye are important, after all. Shouldn’t we strive to get everything right?

Now, here’s a different thought experiment: Imagine it’syouon the train tracks.

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex — what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse — or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.

But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.

So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks gets ground into meat. That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? Then the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Isn’t it odd that sex was never so complicated before? There was nothing ethereal about our biology when it came to allocating the right to vote, or own property, or walk down the street at night without fear. We knew perfectly well what made someone female when that female-ness guaranteed a life of subservience and pain. Only when women began to say no did their bodies become a concept. So many feminists have made this point, over and over again. I see them say it. I know you read it. Did you listen? If not, why? And why do you always respond whenI say it? It seems youdoknow who has a female body, when it comes to decide which perspective is ignored.

Sex is such a mystery to you when women want shelters for themselves, meetings for themselves, words for themselves. Pardon me for asking, but is it equally mysterious when you log off Twitter and move over to Pornhub? The true nature of a female body is so complex when you lecture. Does it become simple again when you masturbate? Who does the laundry in your house? Were you somehow able to navigate an inchoate soup of X’s and Y’s to saddle your girlfriend with the dishes? Give yourself some credit — I think you know perfectly well what a female body is. But in case you don’t, here’s a hint:

It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until the moment we decided we couldn’t figure out what the fuck it even means.

You know what a female body is, dude? It’s the only type of body that makes men like you ask such stupid questions. So please, stop. This is an emergency. This is three and a half billion human beings tied to the tracks, and you’re riding on the train. Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common sense — it doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive.It makes you an asshole. It makes you worse than a bystander. A bystander does nothing. He watches from afar. You step into the fray just to prod the victim. I’m not going to step in too, laying out my rebuttal over the screams. It’s just not worth it.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The momentthey’reconfused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions thatdon’tmake a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave rape crisis centers alone.

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Source: genderarguments.com/openletterbiologicalsex/

FlyingOink · 06/10/2021 07:01

I'm trying to work out where the essential defining component of femaleness is. It doesn't seem to just be genetic, as people have (rightly) stated that womanhood should not exclude XY karyotype female phenotype people.

So a miniscule percentage of males who spend their entire life assuming they are female until investigations prove they are both xy and infertile are accepted into womanhood (or rather, allowed to remain) after this traumatic discovery and somehow that means any male with genderfeels has to be included too? No. And this is using people with DSDs as pawns. It's manipulative and irrelevant.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/10/2021 07:51

I've given the definition that makes the most sense to me, and that was rejected in favour of citing biological definitions that quote the term female. Fair enough.

No. Again: you gave a defintion that attempted to include yourself. Women said no, because science, logic.

So, using those same biological principles, I'm trying to work out where the essential defining component of femaleness is. It doesn't seem to just be genetic, as people have (rightly) stated that womanhood should not exclude XY karyotype female phenotype people.

Oh stop it. You use those words like a bloody weapon, expecting our delicate little lady brains to faint. But we can all see the point of irrationality in there. We even know what fuzzy logic actually is!

We've also rejected the notion of gender identity as a meaningful concept, so simply asking people doesn't seem to be allowed.

We haven't done anything of the sort. That is the lie, the Great Obfuscation that you, and every other transwoman who has ever arrived here, use to make it seem that we dismiss your questions, refuse to believe in your existebce etc. NOT TRUE. And you've been part of some very, very long threads, not started but successfully hijacked by you. So you know it's a lie to say that we won't discuss that, or any other point.

Socialisation also seems to be significant, though not alone enough for the definition? No shit Sherlock!

Where does that leave us?

It leaves (most of) us as females, you as male

Female phenotype at birth alongside lifelong socialisation as a woman? And you clinging to crap like this in some vague hope...

But no!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2021 07:52

I love that piece, Potholes and have also shared it in the face of sophistry!

WomaninBoots · 06/10/2021 08:01

If we all shaved our heads and wore jumpsuits and did whatever we wanted with no gendered socialisation... we would still know what a woman was and that group would not include any males. It really is very simple. The genotype/female sex at birth based definition is perfectly adequate. There is no stable, non-circular definition that encompasses all women and some men. If there was this conversation would be shorter.

And we could accept reality and discuss poetry instead.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2021 08:08

There is no stable, non-circular definition that encompasses all women and some men.

Exactly. As I said to Helen yesterday, people are starting with their ideological op

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2021 08:09

Pressed send too soon Blush

There is no stable, non-circular definition that encompasses all women and some men.

Exactly. As I said to Helen yesterday people are starting with their ideological position and beliefs about gender and identity and trying to make them fit.