what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

Thank you for your post, Butterfly - it is interesting to hear your background to your trans status.

I have more questions - feel free to ignore, obviously, as these are impertinent.

You write very well about your feelings about gender - but, not about what specifically you are doing to "signal" that you are of the female sex. Are there things you consciously do in order to "pass"?

Did the GIC not investigate your suspected DSD? Is it not quite important that they establish whether you have a condition like that? My understanding is that any of the AIS's are linked to increased risk of some serious illnesses.

Does your employer know your gender status?

Do you have a GRC? If not, why not? If you do, do you find it helpful?

Thanks, and, again, ignore entirely because I am cheeky asking. I'm just delighted to have found someone who is willing to talk sensibly. Most of the TW who pop up on here are just avoidant or patronising.

If you can't just rely on being treated in a particular way due to baseline appearance, you have to find ways to compensate; to signal to others how you wish to be engaged with.

This is the part of your explanation I struggle to understand. I really wish to be engaged with in the same way as males are engaged with, particularly in a work situation i.e. that everyone is treated equally regardless of sex, or gender.

When my friend was doing this, she had to jump through various hoops of performative femininity with make-up and skirts and high heels and swishy long hair in order to get her GRC. This was years ago, so these days she mostly lives like a woman by wearing comfy clothes unless formal wear is required, getting roped into family caring responsibilities, taking on more volunteering roles than she really has time for, and spending a decade trying to convince doctors that her physical pain was caused by an actual illness and not just hypochondria.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Thank you for your post, Butterfly - it is interesting to hear your background to your trans status.

I have more questions - feel free to ignore, obviously, as these are impertinent.

You write very well about your feelings about gender - but, not about what specifically you are doing to "signal" that you are of the female sex. Are there things you consciously do in order to "pass"?

Did the GIC not investigate your suspected DSD? Is it not quite important that they establish whether you have a condition like that? My understanding is that any of the AIS's are linked to increased risk of some serious illnesses.

Does your employer know your gender status?

Do you have a GRC? If not, why not? If you do, do you find it helpful?

Thanks, and, again, ignore entirely because I am cheeky asking. I'm just delighted to have found someone who is willing to talk sensibly. Most of the TW who pop up on here are just avoidant or patronising.

Passing etc: Occasionally - I have to be a little careful over voice-only comms sometimes as my voice got far enough into puberty to crack - but I've been exclusively using what I believe is called 'head voice' (I'm in no way particularly well educated in this stuff) for the last twenty years to the point of reflexiveness, and I never had the ongoing late teens-into-twenties resonance changes etc, so I don't even know what my actual range is like! My general social demeanour - animated, chatty, playful, occasionally wistful and prone to waxing poetic - is an advantage here, I think - but I don't think I could change that if I tried!

Physically - appearance, body language etc - hm. Not consciously? I will occasionally find an outfit doesn't look all that flattering on my frame, and there are occasional dysphoria days where I hate everything, but these aren't exactly an uncommon experience amongst the general population. I'm conscious of taking up space - I'm fairly tall - but the genetic lottery was very kind - my sister has tiny hands, and mine are about the same size as my mother's. I basically just look like her, but a few inches taller. I mostly just...behave like my friends do?

DSD etc Ha! I think you're vastly overestimating how much the GIC gave a shit. This was at the level of Oh, you may have this...it might be worth getting checked out as it could also be something that affects any siblings of yours if they have children but they never offered to pursue it themselves. I discussed with my sister at the time (who now has children of her own) and she is aware. It's never felt hugely relevant beyond that? Maybe I should get tested...

Employer My employer does not know my gender history and I have no intention of revealing this.

I do have a GRC. It took me ages because the process is utterly ludicrous and I'm allergic to forms, but yeah, I have one. It's helpful that it exists - the road we walked to get to the GRA was important - even if it doesn't prove particularly relevant to daily life.

@DaisyWaldron

When my friend was doing this, she had to jump through various hoops of performative femininity with make-up and skirts and high heels and swishy long hair in order to get her GRC. This was years ago, so these days she mostly lives like a woman by wearing comfy clothes unless formal wear is required, getting roped into family caring responsibilities, taking on more volunteering roles than she really has time for, and spending a decade trying to convince doctors that her physical pain was caused by an actual illness and not just hypochondria.

Ah yes, this is all very familiar! The GIC used to say you hadn't 'socially transitioned' if you turned up in jeans. Ludicrous...

Comfy clothes, familial caring responsibilities, overcommitting to volunteering roles, assumed hypochondria (with occasional 'trans broken arm') from clinicians? Oh yes.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

The qualification was taken from the old requirements that gender clinics imposed in order to get gender reassignment surgery. Basically "living as the acquired gender" meant obeying the rules of the (usually male) shrinks at gender clinics. They were the ones guilty of stereotyping.

@ButterflyHatched
I just want to say a huge THANK YOU for sharing all you have shared. It's really ... well, I kinda think "interesting" would belittle it. And I found it very moving.
Thank you.

I had no idea that, as a woman, I am meant to be “animated, wistful and waxing poetic”?! These all seem dated sexist stereotypes to me.
But as an autistic, science trained, doctor, feminist and mother, what would I know. I am obviously womaning all wrong…

It's a cliche, but I felt that I was a girl watching my body become a man's, and being expected to behave in ways that made me profoundly uncomfortable as a result. I just couldn't do maleness. I hated it in ways that are hard to express in words.

Many of us find it uncomfortable to behave in ways expected of women. I've never thought that there was something wrong with me that needed to be changed though. I always thought it was the stupid stereotypes that were at fault.

What do you mean that you couldn't do maleness? You were born male, so maleness was just a fact. To do 'maleness', surely all you had to do was live. What did you think you had to do? Men can have any personality, just as women can.

@Babdoc

I had no idea that, as a woman, I am meant to be “animated, wistful and waxing poetic”?! These all seem dated sexist stereotypes to me. But as an autistic, science trained, doctor, feminist and mother, what would I know. I am obviously womaning all wrong…

I'm not claiming anything other than that my personality informs the way I speak, which in my case (speech patterns, tone) seems to also happen to compliment my being gendered correctly by others. I was simply asked what contributes to these things in my case! I'm not implying anyone is doing womanhood wrong; this is merely an observation of vocal mechanics.

@OldCrone

It's a cliche, but I felt that I was a girl watching my body become a man's, and being expected to behave in ways that made me profoundly uncomfortable as a result. I just couldn't do maleness. I hated it in ways that are hard to express in words.

Many of us find it uncomfortable to behave in ways expected of women. I've never thought that there was something wrong with me that needed to be changed though. I always thought it was the stupid stereotypes that were at fault.

What do you mean that you couldn't do maleness? You were born male, so maleness was just a fact. To do 'maleness', surely all you had to do was live. What did you think you had to do? Men can have any personality, just as women can.

I agree that the stupid stereotypes are a problem! Anyone can have any personality.

I was born with male primary sex characteristics that I was never very happy about, and my body sluggishly began undergoing virilisation at puberty, but this process was stopped partway through when it became very clear to me that it was absolutely not the right path, and I then underwent CSH therapy and GRS.

Society tried to train me to perform a particular mode of behaviour, which I very much didn't get on with. I suppose I'd have ended up as a Gender Non Conforming boy if that had been the whole story, but I also experienced severe Gender Dysphoria in relation to my primary and (developing) secondary sex characteristics and as my developing sense of self came into being, it became very clear that what people called me wasn't how I percieved myself.

I can assure you that having to use the boys' changing rooms at school, in the midst of this profoundly palpable awareness of the wrongness of your own body, was an experience that I can only really refer to in Lovecraftian euphemisms.

So do you think you, and other boys in your position today, should be allowed to use the girls' PE changing room instead?

You can't "live as a woman". It is a ridiculous phrase. Anything a person with a female body does is just part of being a woman ...even a woman who feels they are a transman is by definition still just bring as woman as you cannot become a transman unless you are female. And vice versa, so any male thinking he is "living as a woman" is simply doing something that men do... by definition.

If a man wears a dress, make up and acts coquettishly on Tuesdays, then that becomes encompassed in "male behaviour". If a woman cuts down trees and eats chipmunks for breakfast, then that is encompassed in "female behaviour". These things might be outliers in male and female behaviour but if they are bring done by people with male and female bodies respectively...

Did you know that In a recent large anonymous online survey of benefits from childhood transition (Turban 2020), 73% of respondents who self identified that they had been given puberty blockers claimed to have taken them after the age of 18. Those responses were excluded from the analysis for being untrue. Many respondents claimed to have received blockers in the US decades before they actually became available. Do you think that those people who claimed online to have been given puberty blockers when they haven't did so because they are mistaken or to deliberately mislead or for another reason? link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01743-6

@BitMuch: So do you think you, and other boys in your position today, should be allowed to use the girls' PE changing room instead?

A kind teacher eventually allowed me to just outright skip PE lessons, in my case! This was a very long time ago, however, and I was a very unusual outlier; there had never been a kid like me at my school!

We've moved on a long way since then, and it's always been clear that robust policies need to be in place to cover this kind of situation.

@WomaninBoots out of interest, if I do turn out to have AIS (there are other possible causes, but it's commonly due to an inheritable set of 46 XY karyotype mutations in the AR protein), would you say that makes a difference as to whether you consider my body male or female?

I'm paid less than my male colleagues, I'm constantly talked over in meetings, it's baseline assumed I have a surface-only grasp on subjects under discussion. I'm expected to be the mediator; to always be 'kind' and 'neat' and 'nice'.

This is all too pat. All the complaints women might make from time to time rolled into one paragraph. More like a caricature of a woman.

Butterface - I'm not entirely sure since I haven't read your posts... but people with CAIS do not, as I understand it, grow a penis.

ButterFLY. Sorry. Typo.

We've moved on a long way since then, and it's always been clear that robust policies need to be in place to cover this kind of situation.

So do you think you, and other boys in your position today, should be allowed to use the girls' PE changing room instead?

It is a strange requirement when you think about it. Making people really show they want this change...by dressing a specific way.

I'm a woman and mostly live in joggers and havent worn make up for years. Id fail this test.

[quote BitMuch]Did you know that In a recent large anonymous online survey of benefits from childhood transition (Turban 2020), 73% of respondents who self identified that they had been given puberty blockers claimed to have taken them after the age of 18. Those responses were excluded from the analysis for being untrue. Many respondents claimed to have received blockers in the US decades before they actually became available. Do you think that those people who claimed online to have been given puberty blockers when they haven't did so because they are mistaken or to deliberately mislead or for another reason? link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01743-6[/quote]
I'm aware of this rather vexing survey, yes!

If I may provide a little interpretation?

It's possible that some of the survey participants confused Spironolactone (an Androgen Receptor antagonist commonly used as an antiandrogen as part of hormone therapy for trans women, and which has been in use for decades in the US) with Leuprorelin or Triptorelin (GNRH agonists commonly referred to as 'blockers' that prevent the body from telling the gonads to release sex hormones, and which weren't in common use in the US until much later than they were in the UK). I was confused over the difference when I initially presented to GIDS, as I'd never heard of a GNRH agonist before!

Both have the same overall outcome in trans women (cells aren't affected by androgens) even if they work in different ways.

It's worth pointing out that GNRH agonists are still used as part of hormone therapy after the age of 18 as well - they don't just block puberty. They keep it blocked as well! I was on them for nearly a decade, right up until I had my GRS.

@WomaninBoots

Butterface - I'm not entirely sure since I haven't read your posts... but people with CAIS do not, as I understand it, grow a penis.

CAIS no. PAIS...sort of (it varies). MAIS yes.

Each is a position on continuum of phenotypical manifestations of the same set of 46 XY karyotype mutations in the Androgen Receptor protein.

@WomaninBoots

You can't "live as a woman". It is a ridiculous phrase. Anything a person with a female body does is just part of being a woman ...even a woman who feels they are a transman is by definition still just bring as woman as you cannot become a transman unless you are female. And vice versa, so any male thinking he is "living as a woman" is simply doing something that men do... by definition.

If a man wears a dress, make up and acts coquettishly on Tuesdays, then that becomes encompassed in "male behaviour". If a woman cuts down trees and eats chipmunks for breakfast, then that is encompassed in "female behaviour". These things might be outliers in male and female behaviour but if they are bring done by people with male and female bodies respectively...

I've been lurking on and off on here, but I was reminded of your post when reading some paragraphs in a study that is trying to identify the true extent of detransition.

extracts

Twelve cases (12/175, 6.9%) were agreed by all authors to meet the case definition for detransitioning. Regret was specifically documented in two cases. Eight were natal males (seven male to female, one male to non-binary); all had accessed oestradiol and one had accessed GRS. Four were natal females (three female to male, one female to non-binary); all had accessed testosterone and chest surgery during this episode of care, none had accessed GRS. Nine of the twelve had evidence of discontinuing hormones, two had no information documented about hormones and one continued with hormones. Four of these 12 were re-referred into the service during the period of data collection since de-transitioning.

Six cases did not strictly meet the criteria for detransitioning but showed some overlap of experience. One of these six has been re-referred. Four natal males (three male to female, one male to non-binary) had made only partial role transitions so did not meet the case definition; they inconsistently used hormonal interventions and expressed uncertainty about their gender and/or transitioning. Two natal females (one female to male, one female to non-binary) expressed gender identity confusion, one used testosterone inconsistently and both cancelled chest surgery; neither, however, clearly reverted back to their original gender role and therefore did not meet the case definition. [bold mine- what does this mean? So they decided that they no longer wanted elective mastectomies- that's clear. What would living as their "original gender role" look like, to those investigating? Does it mean that they still wanted to be referred to by non-sex-based pronouns, or does it mean they weren't willing to wear feminine clothes?]

(Continues)

As data collection occurred for only 16 months after the most recent discharge, we may have underestimated the frequency of detransitioning. There is some evidence that people detransition on average 417or 8 years18after completion of transition, with regret expressed after 10 years.10Furthermore, as there is no automatic mechanism to inform GICs of service users who subsequently detransition, other instances may have been missed. We gleaned only a limited understanding of those who detransitioned, owing to our reliance on notes. Regret was specifically documented in two cases but may or may not have been experienced by others too. Conversely, the process of transitioning and subsequently detransitioning may, in its own right, have been a positive experience for some.

(Continues)

Notwithstanding the possibility that the rate of detransitioning we found (6.9%) is an underestimate, it is notably higher than the only other published figure from a UK clinic of 0.33%11despite using the same case definition. This likely reflects methodological differences insofar as we looked at patients discharged by the GIC and had access to subsequent information over a 16 month period rather than looking only at service users in treatment. A US survey-based study of people identifying as transgender described patterns of detransitioning and then attempts to retransition akin to ourobservations.12

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/access-to-care-and-frequency-of-detransition-among-a-cohort-discharged-by-a-uk-national-adult-gender-identity-clinic-retrospective-casenote-review/3F5AC1315A49813922AAD76D9E28F5CB

If people believe you can “live as a woman” (or a man) do you also believe it is acceptable for someone to choose to live as another one of the other protected characteristics they don’t have (e.g. age, disability, race, maternity etc.).

If not, why not?

@AndTime

It means presenting as female all the time.

You have to provide evidence of this spanning two years.

Wage slips, utility bills, change of name document, passport or driving license.

In addition to this you have to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, the chances of getting this on the nhs with current waiting times is very little and a private diagnosis costs several hundred pounds.

You also gave to have additional medical documents from your own GP and a affidavit stating your intention to live as your acquired gender.

Yes at really not a quick easy impulsive decision despite how it is made out to be.

But this is where it all seems utterly bemusing to me. Why do you need a GRC if you can change the sex markers on identity documents such as passports and driving licences without one? And if you have the money, you can pay privately for the surgery. What is the actual point of going through that process when you don't need to - what is to be gained by actually obtaining a GRC? We have de facto self-id and governments have tied themselves in knots with it.