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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

AIBU to actually be starting to like the term cis?

671 replies

newnameday · 28/09/2021 10:24

Hopefully this is allowed. Not bashing anyone.

I hated the term cis however this morning it hit me that we may be better embracing it if we can't eradicate it.

We have TWAW etc. But in the next however many years, we may find it easier, for example you're on a dating site "cis woman seeking cis man" therefore you will (hopefully) link with genetically male partners. Rather than "seeking a man" and you may possibly end up with a trans man. Again, no judgement or bashing, however I only ever wanted to be with someone who was genetically male, it's just my preference and I should be able to state this in a simple way.

So you would be able to request a man (if happy with cis or trans man) or woman, a cis man/woman and the subsections of lesbian or gay.

Prepared to be told IABU and sure that someone will likely be able to point out why this is bad. I'm not wanting this to be a bashing thread. I'm just starting to think the term may become useful in the not-too-distant future.

Also prepared this may end up deleted.

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herecomesthsun · 28/09/2021 14:57

I think women don't like being called "cis" women for a lot of reasons.

It feels like a retrograde step in terms of feminism, in terms of getting safe places, in terms of the development of women's sport and so on.

There are some complex issues to be negotiated and we need to acknowledge they exist in order to address them. It might be that we need more resources to make situations safe and fair.

I have no problem at all with someone who wants to wear a skirt and be called "they" and "Ms" socially.

Bobsyer · 28/09/2021 14:58

@WoodchipNightmares

Treading carefully as a man in this debate, but this is an interesting point. If cis does mean that, then isn’t it much less of a loaded term? Just a qualifier, and in the same way as “white” or “able bodied”.

You wouldn’t say the word woman automatically means able bodied, so no need for a qualifier (where relevant in the context)?

"Cis" literally does just mean someone who identifies with the sex they were born as. The term can be used as a prefix to both "man" and "woman". I am a cis woman, my DP is a cis man etc. etc.

In most conversations "woman" suffices, as the nuances of sex and gender are irrelevant, but in conversations relating to sex and gender, it's often beneficial to have a term that identifies females who identify as women. Many people (whether those on this thread like it or not) will use women as an overarching term to include both cis women and transwomen.

Where the nature of the conversation means a distinction is required (smear tests, for instance), the alternative language can otherwise get very clunky ("non-trans woman" being one of the less appealing, along with "cervix owners", the latter of which seems a little reductionist).

Cis was a chemistry word until it was co-opted.

I’d love even a singular example of there being confusion about whether the person in question was ‘cis’ or not prior to say, 2015.

Woman is and was completely adequate. We do not need a qualifier. Ever.

herecomesthsun · 28/09/2021 15:00

Is it just me, or does anyone else have the impression that "natal women" avoids some of these issues a bit more than "cis"? in a formal academic discussion where the distinction needs to be made?

SapphosRock · 28/09/2021 15:01

YANBU to like being called a cis woman yourself

YABU if you don't respect the preferred noun of women who don't like it

RedToothBrush · 28/09/2021 15:01

[quote RainbowBriteUk]@RedToothBrush Honestly, you are disgusting.

Whatever happened to accepting people for whoever they are?[/quote]
Its relevant though! Sex still exists. Thats the point. Cosmetic surgery does not change your sex.

You can be in denial all you like, but its relevant to sexual attraction and long term life plans for a lot of people.

Its not disgusting to point out that sex is important and is the basis of human reproduction!

Accepting people for who ever they are is fine and lots of people do. It doesn't mean I'd want a long term relationship with them if fundamentally their life wasn't compatible with mine. Same as any other personality trait or physical feature. There are limits.

It is important to some people to be pregnant / to father a biological child. We can't get away from this human desire.

BiBabbles · 28/09/2021 15:02

There are women, assigned female at birth, who identify as women, yet are genetically male. For example, women with CAIS:

Socially, we sex on phenotype - so yes, they're usually recorded as female as they have a female phenotype.

It is hurtful to call them men, yes, because they have a female phenotype.

Research in this area has shown a stronger identity connection with phenotype than sex chromosomes as they're not any more likely to have gender dysphoria than anyone else. That's nothing to do with the trans/cis binary & most get that genetically male means male phenotype. Our sex phenotype comes from genetics too, so claiming just sex chromosomes are genetic isn't entirely accurate.

Cis is just a descriptor for someone who is not trans.

No, it means "on the same side."

Dysphoric people who do not identify as trans being categorized as "cis" makes no fucking sense -- you are saying we're on the same side as what distresses us - and erases there are many other ways of viewing gender and gender dysphoria. The trans/cis binary is not universal, many groups around the world have asked for it not to be applied to them as they have a different view of gender diversity. Some are moving away from trans/cis binary and using gender diverse instead in order to actually be inclusive on this topic.

So no, cisgender doesn't mean "not transgender" it means someone who has a very particular view of gender who views themselves within that framework of having a gender on the same side as their sex.

only a minority of variations in sex development are associated with an underlying medical issue which needs treatment. The majority are simply differences in development.

Only a minority are fatal without treatment, the majority - for quality of life reasons - most are recommended to have usually some form of treatments, usually hormonal, as the "differences" are linked to endocrine issues which can have a knock on effect across the body as hormones control bloody everything. In fact, health care access is a big thing for many activists in this area. Erasing the health issues helps no one.

They identify as women and if they want to call themselves women and use her/she etc then that's mighty fine by me.

And that's fine socially.

Legally, there is a different matter. We don't allow people to claim the rights and protections of being British who aren't born British without background checks, references, tests, and such no matter how someone has lived or identifies. I don't think sex should have less consideration than nationality.

Would you rather them use male and get stared at and treated unkindly because that's what happens.

Do you think they don't experience stares or unkindness in single sex women's spaces? Do you think we're all sweetness and light?

Shockingly, no one seemed to mind my being stared at and being treated unkindly in the girls' locker room, but I most certainly was not allowed in the boys' without supervision, even when they allowed me to wrestle with the boys. Some risks were considered too far and we all deserved privacy even if we then wore skin tight unitards.

teawamutu · 28/09/2021 15:02

@herecomesthsun

Is it just me, or does anyone else have the impression that "natal women" avoids some of these issues a bit more than "cis"? in a formal academic discussion where the distinction needs to be made?
I've seen TRAs calling natal a transphobic term because TW are also born women (even if they don't realise for decades).

It's total capitulation or nothing. So I elect nothing.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 28/09/2021 15:03

What I came to realise is the reason some women (on mumsnet) find the word “cis” offensive, is that they want to pretend trans women don’t exist

Stop with the emotive nonsense.
Not wanting to use a bloody prefix to differentiate ourselves from members of the opposite sex does non mean we want to pretend transwomen don't exist.

They can have the prefix. They are trans. They already have their own category as a subset of their own sex.

Hurt male feelings are not women's problem.

Bizawit · 28/09/2021 15:03

@MarshaBradyo

But in my paper I needed to differentiate between the two groups.

Just use women and transwomen?

Have a key if necessary, it would take the reader no time at all to understand it

That would be really offensive to trans women and also less clear.
PronounssheRa · 28/09/2021 15:04

One problem with cis is it imposes a gender identity on people, without their consent. I don't have a gender identity a lot of feminist reject gender entirely, so cis isn't even an accurate descriptor.

We are told not to make assumptions about pronouns, gender identity etc, but that very same courtesy is not offered to women.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/09/2021 15:04

For example, I am currently writing a paper where I need to compare outcomes for a group of trans women against a group of non-trans/ cis/ natal - whatever language you prefer- women.

If you're writing a paper you should be able to use 'male' and 'female' with their standard meaning re sex.

Bizawit · 28/09/2021 15:04

It would be like saying “women with disabilities” and “women” to differentiate between those with disabilities and those without. The reader wouldn’t know if the latter category also included those with disabilities

JaneJeffer · 28/09/2021 15:05

That would be really offensive to trans women
Why?

deadleaves · 28/09/2021 15:07

You'll still get called a transphobe if you do that on dating sites though. For activists, you may as well have put 'I'm a transphobe' and a target on your back. Look what happened to the SuperStraight guy.
He was essentially trying to do this and got slaughtered.

No, saying CIS forces me to call myself according a belief system I don't subscribe to. I no more would call myself cis than I, as a non-christian, would call myself a sinner.

00100001 · 28/09/2021 15:07

That would be really offensive to trans women and also less clear.

It's offensive to women to use cis.

So why is it (yet again) the make sex getting preferential treatment? Why don't women get to be offended???

MarshaBradyo · 28/09/2021 15:08

I’ll let you do the why post from pp but why less clear?

Do you have to use Plain English? I used to for accessibility. Cis is not that.

deadleaves · 28/09/2021 15:10

That would be really offensive to trans women and also less clear

I really, really don't understand this. How can people both wave around ' ' proud to be trans' banners and simultaneously be offended at being called a transwoman?

Its its own thing. Own it and be proud of it!

MarshaBradyo · 28/09/2021 15:10

Bizawit
And yes good point re women finding it offensive

Does that matter to you?

HipTightOnions · 28/09/2021 15:13

It would be like saying “women with disabilities” and “women” to differentiate between those with disabilities and those without. The reader wouldn’t know if the latter category also included those with disabilities

Only to people who believe that transwomen are a subset of women, not men. We (mostly) don’t believe that.

Jaysmith71 · 28/09/2021 15:20

The non-disabled are cisabled.
Those with two functioning legs are cislegged.
Those with no need of glasses or contacts are cissighted.

Etc

BiBabbles · 28/09/2021 15:22

It would be like saying “women with disabilities” and “women” to differentiate between those with disabilities and those without. The reader wouldn’t know if the latter category also included those with disabilities

But some people with medical conditions that could be classified as a disability don't identify as disabled.

If you said all people who aren't disabled are able-bodied, you'd be wrong. If you say there is a difference in employment levels between the two groups, you'd be right, because you're not making an individual judgement but comparing groups.

At a population level, yeah, social categories can be useful for discussions, but it's recognized as limited - that's where cis came from before it was popularized as it is now. Sometimes in conversations we simplify groups like disabled and able bodied to not get lost in the minutia to be able to discuss these topics, but we can recognize that trying to apply these social categories to every individual will erase people.

It's like BAME or LGBTQ - I don't mind that when discussing a population with acknowledgement that it's limited, but call me a BAME person or an LGBTQ person and I'll not be happy. Even disabled person, yes I've used that for myself, but I would find it very odd if someone else decided to identify me that way with no other context.

bbgxd · 28/09/2021 15:23

@Bizawit

It would be like saying “women with disabilities” and “women” to differentiate between those with disabilities and those without. The reader wouldn’t know if the latter category also included those with disabilities

Both women and women with disabilities are female so both women

Trans women are not women because trans is directly contradictory to the word woman. It's the accepted term in society, but they aren't literally female.

There's no ambiguity between women vs trans women in any context.

bbgxd · 28/09/2021 15:25

@HipTightOnions

It would be like saying “women with disabilities” and “women” to differentiate between those with disabilities and those without. The reader wouldn’t know if the latter category also included those with disabilities

Only to people who believe that transwomen are a subset of women, not men. We (mostly) don’t believe that.

If they believed it, there'd be no need for the word cis. It's all just faux naivety. There's nothing to be confused about, we all know what a woman is

FatBettyintheCoop · 28/09/2021 15:26

Of course Transwomen exist. Same as Transmen.

Just as men and women exist.

Adding the label CIS in front of the word Woman tells me you’re desperate to be seen as oh so woke.

Crack on by all means, but you won’t change my opinion that biology is all that really matters and gender is pretty much irrelevant.

Bizawit · 28/09/2021 15:32

@deadleaves

That would be really offensive to trans women and also less clear

I really, really don't understand this. How can people both wave around ' ' proud to be trans' banners and simultaneously be offended at being called a transwoman?

Its its own thing. Own it and be proud of it!

Guys you are all misunderstanding.

I did use the word “trans” to refer to trans women. I then needed a word to refer to “non-trans” women. This was for the sake of clarity. No group was to be privileged over the other.

If I had made the groups:

Women vs cis women

Or

Women vs trans women

That would be a) less clear, b) prioritising one group over the other.

It would be like saying

BME women vs women.

That would be deeply problematic.

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