Asking politicians 'can a woman have a penis'?

[EdgeOfACoin]

I've raised this on other threads.

Obviously, politicians all week have been stumbling over whether 'Woman: adult human female' is offensive, and debating whether only women have cervixes (cervices?)

What I want to see now are politicians challenged on whether a woman can have a penis. I want to see whether a senior politician is prepared to stand up and argue that a penis may be viewed as a female sex organ. I want to see this put to politicians on Andrew Marr etc.

Any ideas how we can make this happen?

Where is Piers Morgan when you need him!

I'm so confused with all these conversations about who has what and I don't know if it's all gone a bit nuts or if I'm miles out of touch.

My very simple understanding is that there are just two sexes. Male and female. This is defined by the sexual organs you are born with.

If later in life you subsequently change your gender (different to sex) by either general appearance or medically, you continue to remain the same sex that you were born as.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong as I'm starting to avoid all posts such as these on the basis that I'm not sure I fully understand what all the fuss is about.

Sorry if I am causing offence by this post also as this is not my intention.

Based on all the above. A female (at birth) absolutely cannot have a penis.

Also when talking about health and social policy, is it polite to refer to ‘people with a penis/prostate/testicles’?

They won't. Women's bodies are public property, can be discussed and portioned up and debated over endlessly.

It might upset the ladyfeels of special women to mention their bodies tho. So nobody is allowed to even think about that sort of think.

I will eat my own arm if Andrew Marr ever raises this. It would signal the downfall of the patriarchy and it would be worth the pain.

That’s what I think too. It’s just ..physical reality..not a “belief” 🙄. I genuinely can’t believe that KS a very intelligent man my age actually thinks otherwise. I mean - how can you?!

Window your understanding is perfectly correct and yes, it has all gone very nuts.

@Window1

I'm so confused with all these conversations about who has what and I don't know if it's all gone a bit nuts or if I'm miles out of touch.

My very simple understanding is that there are just two sexes. Male and female. This is defined by the sexual organs you are born with.

If later in life you subsequently change your gender (different to sex) by either general appearance or medically, you continue to remain the same sex that you were born as.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong as I'm starting to avoid all posts such as these on the basis that I'm not sure I fully understand what all the fuss is about.

Sorry if I am causing offence by this post also as this is not my intention.

Based on all the above. A female (at birth) absolutely cannot have a penis.

You're not remotely wrong. You're absolutely right. And all the wishful thinking in the world will not make it different.

This is defined by the sexual organs you are born with.

I'd say your sex is determined at conception in the chromosomes, and fixed throughout life.

@Window1

I'm so confused with all these conversations about who has what and I don't know if it's all gone a bit nuts or if I'm miles out of touch.

My very simple understanding is that there are just two sexes. Male and female. This is defined by the sexual organs you are born with.

If later in life you subsequently change your gender (different to sex) by either general appearance or medically, you continue to remain the same sex that you were born as.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong as I'm starting to avoid all posts such as these on the basis that I'm not sure I fully understand what all the fuss is about.

Sorry if I am causing offence by this post also as this is not my intention.

Based on all the above. A female (at birth) absolutely cannot have a penis.

Exactly.

Now if only the politicians would acknowledge that. They are too scared to.

Window1 the issue is that many people born male who identify as women are now asking that they are treated as literal women in all senses of the word. This appears to be Labour's policy too.

It is worth bearing in mind that the majority of mtf transitioners do not have full genital surgery (it's a pretty risky surgery) and so retain their penises. However, they wish to access women's single-sex spaces such as communal changing rooms etc. on the basis of their gender identity. Many of them on Twitter consider their penis to be a 'female' sex organ (sometimes charmingly referred to as 'lady dick').

Many people don't realise the reality. It would be very helpful if Labour politicians could stand up and say what they mean on this issue, and say if they defend the right of people with penises to use female-only spaces in the basis of gender identity.

Lisa Nandy has been candid in the past - she believes that male-bodied convicted rapists / paedophiles who have a female gender identity should be incarcerated with women.

I would like to see this issue debated more widely in a way that is crystal clear, and not subject to misunderstanding.

It’s very simple.

All you have to remember is that you must not use biological words like “breast feeding” as that is triggering to nursing transmen and that transmen actually want to be referred to as “bodies with vaginas” or “cervix havers” because that is inclusive and is in no way contradictory.

Until the rules change and we all move round the table and the dormouse wakes up in the teapot.

Also you will deserve the death threats and calls for sacking if you don’t get today’s rules absolutely correct (ps we won’t tell you what the rules are, it’s not our job to educate etc)

@ArabellaScott

They won't. Women's bodies are public property, can be discussed and portioned up and debated over endlessly.

It might upset the ladyfeels of special women to mention their bodies tho. So nobody is allowed to even think about that sort of think.

I will eat my own arm if Andrew Marr ever raises this. It would signal the downfall of the patriarchy and it would be worth the pain.

I hope you're wrong. That's so depressing.

Surely Julia Hartley-Brewer could help us out with this?

I recently went for a smear and the language in the booklet said something like 'women and people with a cervix should have a smear test'. Does anyone think this language is unacceptable? To me it seemed fine.

@ColouringPencils

I recently went for a smear and the language in the booklet said something like 'women and people with a cervix should have a smear test'. Does anyone think this language is unacceptable? To me it seemed fine.

I don't like it because it implies that 'woman' is something other than an adult human female.

If you have a cervix and are being called for a smear test, you are a woman (even if you 'identify'' as something else).

What is a woman if not an adult human female? A list of stereotypes we all adhere to?

@musicalfrog

Where is Piers Morgan when you need him!

He held out for too much money from GB News, and has now signed for Murdoch's new news channel, coming soon to do a Fox News on the UK.

I'd prefer them to specify the difference between a man and a TW. At what point does a man become a woman?

Is it when they say they are? When they get a diagnosis, have surgery or take cross sex hormones? I want them to explain why and when they give men id - birth certificated, passports and driving licences that say that they are women.

@ColouringPencils

I recently went for a smear and the language in the booklet said something like 'women and people with a cervix should have a smear test'. Does anyone think this language is unacceptable? To me it seemed fine.

If you want to really pull that language apart than yes it is unacceptable and almost suggesting that women aren't people, they are separate from people with cervixes. It can be read as women with cervixes and people with cervixes if the reader chooses to read it that way. Unreasonable and unnecessary.

I don't believe for any second that any reasonable, decent and sensible trans man, you know, who actually do just want to get on with living their lives, has any issue with language, particularly medical literature, using the terminology that has been universally accepted since the dawn of time, ie WOMEN. We all know that this is not about them at all. We know exactly who this is about, as it always is.

@Window1 this thread is excellent for explaining the whole debate - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

[quote Waitwhat23]@Window1 this thread is excellent for explaining the whole debate - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me[/quote]

Thank you 😊

@ColouringPencils

I recently went for a smear and the language in the booklet said something like 'women and people with a cervix should have a smear test'. Does anyone think this language is unacceptable? To me it seemed fine.

I don’t like it because the implication is that ‘woman’ can’t be a neutral word to refer to biology, and that it must refer to gender.

However, I don’t particularly like ‘cop a feel’ (name of Breast cancer charity) either, but recognise that the priority is effective communication.

@WrapAroundYourDreams yeah I see your point, but I am more worried about the erasure of the word woman. You could argue this is that, or that it is a more inclusive compromise. I was not offended to be called a woman and that other people who don't call themselves women can also have a cervix. I would be offended if the literature was only about people who have cervixes, which makes me wonder if it is also offensive to transmen. I thought the general wording of the booklet was good, will try to find it.

I think Julia Hartley-Brewer would be the only one with the balls to so this

I prefer the term ‘assigned female at birth’. I wrote recently that Ive seen this recently on lots of forms abd it doesn’t offend me at all.

But @FreeBritnee, sex is not 'assigned'.

It is OBSERVED.

HTH

Sorry to be picky but I don't like "assigned female at birth" either.

It sounds as if the doctors have a bingo wheel and just pick out a male or female bingo ball out at random and write on on a form. Sex is observed at birth, and often in utero.