Does Lisa Nandy hate women?

[TedImgoingmad]

Lisa Nandy on Peston this evening.

Peston: ....your colleague, Rosie Duffield, who, you know, insists, and many would agree with her, is not remotely a transphobe, does not feel safe going to Labour conference. What does that tell you about the Labour Party?

Nandy: Well it's appalling that anybody could feel unsafe going to Labour conference, and I think Kier was right to say on behalf of the whole party that we will stand up to that sort of behaviour. Nobody should feel intimidated out of our politics. I come from that school of politics myself. I have profound disagreements with many people across the political spectrum....but I respect their right to disagree with me, I think that's how we get better as a country, and I think Kier was right to stand up for that and say we have to have these debates.

Peston: But he hasn't made it safe for her to go and that's a failure.

Nandy: Well, a-a you know, I'm very clear that Rosie is welcome at our conference and I'll do everything that I can to support her to make sure that she is, and I'm also very clear that trans men and women are welcome in the Labour Party and that we will always stand up for them and against the bigotry and discrimination that they face in society. I have a young person in my constituency who's going through this at the moment. 2 in 5 trans young people have attempted suicide. That should really give us pause for thought about how we're treating people. Social media is not our friend in all of this. We've got to take the heat out of some of the conversations, shed far far more light, and start to tackle the real issues, like why it is that so many trans people across the country are waiting years for help and support on the National Health Service... [ cut off by Peston]
Peston: I, I completely - many people watching will completely agree with you on the pernicious impact of social media on these important debates, it's something we should all be concerned about. Lisa, thanks for joining us.

Nice to know where Lisa's priorities lie with respect to the rights, experiences and fears of women such as Rosie Duffield and the rest of us mere cunty women. Nowhere near as important to Lisa as the "real issues".

Wow, what a complete non-answer to Peston's second point.

What has any of that got to do with Rosie and the failure to make her safe? Can we not just talk about women for one damn second without ''but wut about trans, discrimination, but suicide, but waiting lists. Don't look there at what's happening to her and other women, look over here at this instead.''

FFS 🙄

Natal women are never ever going to garner support from these handmaidens. They'd spit on a natal women rather than put them one centimetre ahead of a transwoman in any scenario. Transmen though, they don't count for sod all!

I have a young person in my constituency who's going through this at the moment. 2 in 5 trans young people have attempted suicide.

1 Nandy has been been relying on that anecdote for years now. One anecdote should not be making a party policy.

2 Those statistics are fake.

Why don't journalists ever challenge her on this?

No, I'm certain Lisa Nancy doesn't hate women.

40% of trans young people have attempted suicide? That sounds... incredibly high. Just possibly 'report that they have attempted suicide'?

There are a lot of suicide statistics floating about, its hard to keep track of which ones have some evidence behind them and what it is. And I'm not someone who discounts self-reported surveys, though I think they should always be clearly labelled as such.

There are a number of published rebuttals of the fake suicide statistics, and Nandy hasn't noticed any of them.

According to Stonewall, one in five (27%) of trans young people report attempting suicide (youth chances survey 2014). Two in five report being attacked or threatened with violence (different survey). Grim.

And it may sound petty but if you're going to use statistics, particularly about suicide, it matters getting them right. I think LN probably meant to use the attack statistic as that's more relevant to the Rosie Duffield story, but muddled it with the suicide statistic. I think if you're not confident at producing this stuff on the hoof in interviews, and God knows it must be difficult, maybe keep to more general stuff

I don't think calling these 'fake suicide statistics' is helpful. There were some ludicrously poor suicide statistics about but some others are much more convincing. One of the difficulties in the past was bundling all LGBTQ+ into one category, ironically obscuring greater vulnerability in trans people. One of the most egregious for me us combining age groups so that suicide stats for everyone 25 and under are forced together, when suicides under about 16 are incredibly rare.

@SpindleWorld

I have a young person in my constituency who's going through this at the moment. 2 in 5 trans young people have attempted suicide.

1 Nandy has been been relying on that anecdote for years now. One anecdote should not be making a party policy.

2 Those statistics are fake.

Why don't journalists ever challenge her on this?

This in spades.

You don't get to be a credible politician by basing your position on one constituents circumstances/beliefs/MH issues.

It's akin to saying "I have a constituent who is vegan and we need to respect that and stop selling meat".

I'm also going to bang on again (after my regular annual name change) about the term trans children.

It's affirmation in plain sight.

There are children who may be diagnosed with gender dysphoria after clinical assessment.

Those children are not necessarily trans. In fact, if appropriately supported through the vast majority will desist.

Yet what we have now is children having their "gender identity" (and thus sex) appropriated through institutional capture and affirmed through schools and supposed supportive environments.

Lisa Nandy infuriates me on this.

If she really cares about the "trans child" in her constituency then she'd have bloody done her homework on the fake suicide stats, the impact of blockers, the impact on brain development of not experiencing puberty, the impact of a lifetime of medication and detransition regret.

What's the betting if "this child" turns out to regret like Keira Bell that Lisa will acknowledge and support that child then?

"2 in 5 trans young people have attempted suicide."

A blatant lie.

I challenge her to prove this.

fake suicide statistics
Fake attempted suicide stats, even. That bogeyman is losing much of its impact.

Even if the stats were real, which they aren't of course, surely the solution would be to throw some of the funding handed to the likes of Stonewall to childrens mental health services and stop with the ridiculous affirmation only model.

It's nothing but emotional blackmail. Coercive control.
Do as we say or we'll kill ourselves.

Trevor Project 2020 - over 50% consider suicide
You make trans lives so miserable but won’t admit it.,You treat them as either dangerous or dirty. A joke. Can one of you ladies give me an example of what you would consider transphobic? A way of treating them, or how to refer to them. I always assumed they might know best. But I’d be interested to get your examples of what you might consider transphobic behaviour so I can watch out for anyone doing it www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstaceyennis/2021/05/19/terrible-time-for-trans-youth-new-survey-spotlights-suicide-spike---and-hope/?sh=40ccdc36716e

Thank you for posting much better statistics Poppy. I'll say again it is unhelpful and wrong simply to refer to 'fake' suicide statistics or to self harm as a 'bogeyman' The old statistics that were really poor have become 'better' in that they are better researched and more likely to separate out LGB risk from T risk. It has always been true that young people with mental health problems were at higher risk of suicidal ideation; the old statistics indicated no greater risk for trans identified young people with mh comorbidities.

Reading the Trevor Project survey of 35000 American young people linked to by Dawn Ennis (dare we hope Dawn has stopped writing about sport?) there are some INFURIATING omissions. The single biggest and least forgivable is - sex. Actual suicides of young people in the US split 5:1 male:female but from that survey you can't tell if young male or female people are more at risk, or if there's any difference with trans-identification.

The biggest standout is the opposite age profile from other stats - that children identifying as trans or nonbinary are much more at risk at puberty (13-17) than post 18. Again, infuriating to squash trans and nonbinary into one category.

Difficult to apply these directly to the UK - the indigenous category doesn't work over here and is the single greatest risk category. I would imagine the closest correlation for the UK sits somewhere in economic status (another missing analysis in the US data) or possibly looked-after status.

The ragged shreds of CAMHS service remaining certainly need to engage with the increased risk that more reliable stats is showing for trans identified children.

Good writeup @TedImgoingmad

I just saw this on catchup and started raging when Nandy referred to "the real issues" as though death and rape threats towards politicians like Rosie and Joanna Cherry aren't "real issues".

And Nandy has been dining out on the "young trans person in my community" anecdote for years now. It would be great if she'd show the same level of concern for women in her constituency.

Can one of you ladies give me an example of what you would consider transphobic?

Sure, I think it is transphobic when people are fired for being trans or bullied at school or work for being trans. Men assaulting trans people for being trans is transphobic.

The prominent TRAs on social media like Damien Barr referring to trans people using slur words like t*** seems transphobic to me.

I don't however, think it is transphobic to think that sex is real and that sex has meaningful consequences for legal and social policies.

Hello poppy.

'Can one of you ladies give me an example of what you would consider transphobic? A way of treating them, or how to refer to them. I always assumed they might know best'

No problem.

I'd say things like-

Attacking people who are taken as trans (GNC) on the street. Men carrying out transphobic/ racist etc attacks are too common.

Bullying a trans colleague because they are trans. Case recently where it was I think a car factory and mostly male. The blokes were bullying a trans woman or maybe a non binary femme presenting colleague. Appalling. The victim won the case.. Good.

Some male dominated sites apparently are really bad. Slurs jokes etc about trans people.

Does that help?

When it comes to stats.

Really the data should be collected widely about young people and MH and then segmented.

Focusing on one group alone is an incomplete picture. We know that MH in young people is a worry and it needs to be looked at holistically. Imo.

Same with Lisa n and NHS waiting times.

Loads of groups / procedures are not getting the care they need.

The NHS is under the cosh.

This absolutely needs to be looked at across the board and looked at from that angle.

Fighting for this or that. When there is little money. And resources must be allocated based on the whole piece, prioritised etc.

Money in the NHS should not be allocated according to the amount of pressure about it.

And please don't call us laydeeees makes me think I'm at a shit pub disco in the 80s.

I don't think Nandy meant what was happening to Duffield is not a real issue, that sentence We've got to take the heat out of some of the conversations, shed far far more light, and start to tackle the real issues, like why it is that so many trans people across the country are waiting years for help and support on the National Health Service... is not about Duffield at all.

The answer to that question is obvious though.

Because the NHS has limited resources/ money. And it's allocated according to prioritision, severity, success etc etc. As it should be.

Loads of essential NHS services are underfunded, long waiting lists etc.

MH for young people is one.

To push this above all else is well. It doesn't acknowledge real life.

She hasn't moved on from a year ago. She says the same things each time.

'More light less heat'
'I have a trans child constituent'

The debate has opened up enormously in the last 12 months and Nandy clings to the same old script.

These politicians have a stock answer for what they don't know about.

Thinking it will be useful to mention real people and mental health.

However she's clearly going to have to get up to speed as Kier seems to be saying he supports women (I can't read this so can't fully work out what he's saying but two friends have excitedly shared.)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html?fbclid=IwAR1-E8QMKMzBGO94V8-tDUY58qehXpyijC3MW7iw8T0Nq3_lghC2ekaZjFM

I don't think she does hate women and that's a stretch to construe that.

I knew her family well growing up. I'm saddened she's not taken a more critical and analytic view but I do think she's a career politician.

I don’t normally get involved in this argument as I can’t work out my position, but 25% of all under 17 suicides are children with ASD. Doesn’t mean they get any more help or acknowledgement or national attention from politicians and celebrities. No, they get dumped on long waiting lists for even a diagnosis and families sidelined and gaslighted through the education system.
Here is the suicide data.
www.ncmd.info/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/REF253-2020-NCMD-Summary-Report-on-Child-Suicide-July-2020.pdf

Any suicide is terrible but mis-using at as a reason to focus on one group not another is just an abuse of data for your own political purpose. If the issue is hate crime, deal with hate crime for all. If it’s suicide then deal with suicide for all. If it’s male violence, deal with solving it for all their victims. What she’s actually saying is we are prioritising this one group above the needs of all the others in need for the same reasons and we are hiding behind this data as our motive.