Does Lisa Nandy hate women?

[TedImgoingmad]

Lisa Nandy on Peston this evening.

Peston: ....your colleague, Rosie Duffield, who, you know, insists, and many would agree with her, is not remotely a transphobe, does not feel safe going to Labour conference. What does that tell you about the Labour Party?

Nandy: Well it's appalling that anybody could feel unsafe going to Labour conference, and I think Kier was right to say on behalf of the whole party that we will stand up to that sort of behaviour. Nobody should feel intimidated out of our politics. I come from that school of politics myself. I have profound disagreements with many people across the political spectrum....but I respect their right to disagree with me, I think that's how we get better as a country, and I think Kier was right to stand up for that and say we have to have these debates.

Peston: But he hasn't made it safe for her to go and that's a failure.

Nandy: Well, a-a you know, I'm very clear that Rosie is welcome at our conference and I'll do everything that I can to support her to make sure that she is, and I'm also very clear that trans men and women are welcome in the Labour Party and that we will always stand up for them and against the bigotry and discrimination that they face in society. I have a young person in my constituency who's going through this at the moment. 2 in 5 trans young people have attempted suicide. That should really give us pause for thought about how we're treating people. Social media is not our friend in all of this. We've got to take the heat out of some of the conversations, shed far far more light, and start to tackle the real issues, like why it is that so many trans people across the country are waiting years for help and support on the National Health Service... [ cut off by Peston]
Peston: I, I completely - many people watching will completely agree with you on the pernicious impact of social media on these important debates, it's something we should all be concerned about. Lisa, thanks for joining us.

Nice to know where Lisa's priorities lie with respect to the rights, experiences and fears of women such as Rosie Duffield and the rest of us mere cunty women. Nowhere near as important to Lisa as the "real issues".

@MonsignorMirth

Can one of you ladies give me an example of what you would consider transphobic?

One example is assuming the gender of people you don't know, for example calling them "ladies".

Please educate yourself, poppy.

You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder there.

This is a forum primarily for mothers, with all but a tiny minority of members being female, using "ladies" to collectively address that group is perfectly fine.

@PermanentTemporary

I don't think calling these 'fake suicide statistics' is helpful. There were some ludicrously poor suicide statistics about but some others are much more convincing. One of the difficulties in the past was bundling all LGBTQ+ into one category, ironically obscuring greater vulnerability in trans people. One of the most egregious for me us combining age groups so that suicide stats for everyone 25 and under are forced together, when suicides under about 16 are incredibly rare.

I keep checking all the way back to the sources every time someone uses suicide stats in this debate and about this group.

I follow the quoted stats back to the original study or survey whenever that is possible and as far as I can tell, they are all of similar low quality or similarly misused.

The most reliable source in the UK is the Tavistock, who responded to the claims about such widespread suicidality amongst children diagnosed with gender dysphoria that based on their over 5000 patient records it simply isn't true.

These children are no different from other children with mental health issues. IIRC, children with anorexia are at the highest risk of suicide, which is almost twice that of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria. And yet no one uses that to say we should affirm their beliefs about themselves.

And the reason, PermanentTemporary why the use of these false claims is so irresponsible is that they are made to justify putting children on a medical pathway that has life-limiting consequences for many.

And the reason why that should be unlawful in my view is because there is no evidence that a transition, whether social or medical, actually decreases the risk of suicide. None.

Also, Lisa is arguing wholly illogically here anyway, because the issue of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria has nothing whatsoever to do with Labour keeping Labour women safe or specifically what Rosie Duffield actually engaged on - women's rights, not children transitioning.

But even if this was relevant, LN is saying: children must be allowed to transition because this will lower the risk they might kill themselves. And no matter what study you look at or what particular number she decides to use on any given day, this is not true. It is not true.

Puberty blockers carry a warning on the patient leaflet in the EU now that they cause depression and suicides. Studies into actual suicides show they occur at least as often in gender dysphoric people who have transitioned as in those who have not.

So she's using fake stats to make erroneous claims about what these children need.

Of course, here she says we must be nicer as a society on social media because these children are at risk of suicide. (Again, also, forgetting this isn't a two sides as bad as each other issue.) And again this is an irresponsible claim. These children suffer a serious mental health condition. The absolute worst thing we could do for them is to deny it's a mental health condition because that removes the treatment options proven to be most effective at improving their lives: counselling to help them reconcile body and mind. And yet that's what we're doing. And LN would probably call me transphobic for even saying it's a mental health condition.

This is a forum primarily for mothers, with all but a tiny minority of members being female, using "ladies" to collectively address that group is perfectly fine.

Prove it. And no it isn't 'perfectly fine'. Do better.

Every time I read suicide risk stats for young trans adults or children with gender dysphoria (I refuse to call them trans children), I wonder how many of them are in the group with ASD who are at very high risk of suicide as described by CasparBloomberg . Are these the same children? In which case why is the trans narrative so much more important?

How can she hate women if she doesn't actually know what a women is?

Or what a woman is, oops.

Matilda I think Monsignor's post was intended as a parody of the 'You've misgendered me, that's literal violence' that we see from TRAs.

@SpindleWorld

I have a young person in my constituency who's going through this at the moment. 2 in 5 trans young people have attempted suicide.

1 Nandy has been been relying on that anecdote for years now. One anecdote should not be making a party policy.

2 Those statistics are fake.

Why don't journalists ever challenge her on this?

Because to question it would be to be branded “TRANSPHOBIC!!!” Surely you know the depressing narrative by now

@WarriorN

These politicians have a stock answer for what they don't know about.

Thinking it will be useful to mention real people and mental health.

However she's clearly going to have to get up to speed as Kier seems to be saying he supports women (I can't read this so can't fully work out what he's saying but two friends have excitedly shared.)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html?fbclid=IwAR1-E8QMKMzBGO94V8-tDUY58qehXpyijC3MW7iw8T0Nq3_lghC2ekaZjFM

As per the thread about this, Keir S really isn't saying that at all.

Analysis of most of the studies/surveys that include the topic of suicide for LGBT demographics:

4thwavenow.com/tag/lgbt-suicide/

Why, oh why, do I feel that there is just much jumping on the bandwagon with lots of politicians, and why does everything have to be either/or?
Being respectful and agreeing that there are different people who all need safe spaces isn't so difficult is it? Telling anyone that they are behaving very badly isn't too much to ask for, is it? And behaving as though being in a minority, any minority, endows them with automatic sainthood is just silly.
Sorry, I felt the need for a bit of a rant today.

This is a very good piece by Genevieve Gluck on the suicide stats, specifically in relation to puberty blockers:

genevievegluck.substack.com/p/puberty-blockers-and-the-medical

'In addition, a Swedish study showed that after transition, patients had a 19x higher rate of suicide than matched controls: “The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide. Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts and psychiatric inpatient care.”'

It's really worth remembering that children presenting with gender dysphoria are more likely to have mental health problems. It's wrong to assume that the mental health problems are a consequence of not having their gender identity affirmed. It's also possible (indeed likely, in my view) that their gender dysphoria is a response to their mental health difficulties, with children latching on very readily to a simple explanation for their emotional distress.

"
This is a forum primarily for mothers, with all but a tiny minority of members being female, using "ladies" to collectively address that group is perfectly fine."

Mumsnet is an open forum and there are consequently plenty of men on it. Don't know the exact figure but I seem to recall as high as a third??

There are definitely a lot of blokes on MN these days.

Public figures really need to take a lot more care when talking about suicide. Especially when associating it with particular groups of young people.

Lisa Nandy’s words brought to mind a recent to-camera video by a tearful rock musician who had been deeply hurt when a member of the public greeted him with “hey, are you the guy from [whatever the band was called]?” The musician, who presented as obviously male, said he had two options: wear makeup, or kill himself.

It was almost as if suicide has become part of the package.

@OhHolyJesus

We've got to take the heat out of some of the conversations, shed far far more light

She has been saying this for over 2 years now. It's was all less heat and more light in the run up to the elections. She hasn't done anything but fuel the fire and tighten the curtains further. She is an absolute idiot in my view and a traitor to women, inc Rosie.

This!

Nandy doesn't hate women, but they just don't factor in her priorities because she made a pinky promise to a family in her constituency with a gender dysphoric child that she would never ever say anything that would stop them getting what they want.

That's how politics works, right? Whoever gets you to pinky swear first gets the support?

Women just had the wrong strategy. We should have been getting MPs to be our bestie and promise to give us what we want regardless of who it damages.

I wish Nandy would make it outside of her ivory tower for five minutes and try meeting some other children in her consistuency.

Like the ones from minority faiths and cultures, with disabilities, or who have experienced DV, VAG and trauma, who are going to grow up with no services or spaces they can access, in some cases including school toilets.

Are they not cute enough or something? There'll be a hell of a lot more of them than this one single dysphoric child - and surely Nandy's got a brain capable of seeing that she doesn't have to choose which child gets help and throw the others to the wolves?

There are actually solutions where every child could have equal provision made, and it's called actual inclusion and diversity.

@Artichokeleaves

I wish Nandy would make it outside of her ivory tower for five minutes and try meeting some other children in her consistuency.

Like the ones from minority faiths and cultures, with disabilities, or who have experienced DV, VAG and trauma, who are going to grow up with no services or spaces they can access, in some cases including school toilets.

Are they not cute enough or something? There'll be a hell of a lot more of them than this one single dysphoric child - and surely Nandy's got a brain capable of seeing that she doesn't have to choose which child gets help and throw the others to the wolves?

There are actually solutions where every child could have equal provision made, and it's called actual inclusion and diversity.

This ☝️

Arty Morty made a really good point on 'The Mess We're In' the other day, re. waiting lists for gender surgery (etc).

His point was, that long waiting lists are really useful, because they are self-selecting - the vast majority of people (can't remember if he said people or men) will have changed their minds, by the time their appointment comes around. So the 'impulsive' decisions get weeded out.
How about that, Ms Nandy? Long NHS Gender doo-dah waiting lists are a Good Thing.

And if your constituent had been put on the end of an even longer queue, the intervening puberty might have made them change their mind, and they wouldn't now be a lifelong medical patient. Win-win.

She, like every TRA, is indifferent to women and women's lives. She can only see the issue from the perspective of men. She has not once considered the issue from the viewpoint of women and I would say that this is a form of hatred that all the TRAs share. Many of them seem incapable of putting themselves in women's shoes ironically, and have no interest in doing so. She simply wouldn't be a TRA if she put value on women and our lives.

I don't think she hates women. I just don't think she has the right kind of mind for formulating policy.

@LastSummerHere

She, like every TRA, is indifferent to women and women's lives. She can only see the issue from the perspective of men. She has not once considered the issue from the viewpoint of women and I would say that this is a form of hatred that all the TRAs share. Many of them seem incapable of putting themselves in women's shoes ironically, and have no interest in doing so. She simply wouldn't be a TRA if she put value on women and our lives.

I think that's right. For someone like Nandy, it's very much a luxury belief. She could afford to support putting a rapist into a women's prison - as she did during the Labour leadership campaign - because she's never going to go to prison. Neither is she likely to need the support of a domestic violence or rape crisis centre. She almost certainly doesn't take part in competitive sport. None of this makes any difference to her.

The fact that she constantly makes reference to the one gender-dysphoric child in her constituency (population: 74,000) tells me that she has given next to no thought to this issue. This single anecdote is all she's got. She backs it up with suicide statistics that she either knows are wrong or, more probably, hasn't bothered to check.

This is the calibre of the people we have representing us in parliament. It gives me the chills.

I have a young person in my constituency who's going through this at the moment.

That young person does a hell of a lot of heavy lifting for Nandy is used to justify anything and everything including putting a man who was convicted of being a paedophile rapist in the female prison estate.

@RedDogsBeg

I have a young person in my constituency who's going through this at the moment.

That young person does a hell of a lot of heavy lifting for Nandy is used to justify anything and everything including putting a man who was convicted of being a paedophile rapist in the female prison estate.

I sometimes wonder if the young person and the family in question ever think: "I went to her as an individual. I never thought I'd be used as a human shield for the erasure of women as a sex class, the mixing of prisons, hospital wards…I don't consent to being a shield for this."