Labour have committed to single sex spaces

[flumpetto]

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

...there are masses of photographic records of German soldiers in WWII literally letting their hair down and dressing up as women, complete with fake breasts....

Not just the Germans. The ENSA Concert Parties had their fair share of the likes of Gunner 'Gloria' Beaumont in It Aint Half Hot, Mum, which I am old enough to remember. Do not tell me that the Melvyn Hayes character was anything but a male homosexual.

There is even the scene in the (historically inaccurate) film The Colditz Story where the chaps put on a show with men in falsies etc to distract the Germans while the other chaps get out of the castle in the tunnel, the glider, the wooden horse or whatever. Also Not Trans.

QueenPeary
I am totally open to changing my stance on this if evidence comes along that a trans person does in some way change sex. But strangely despite the endless arguing, insisting, claiming victimhood and so on and so on, the trans lobby never provides good, sound, scientific evidence. In fact the more closely you look at the evidence there is, the more it points the other way.

Well exactly, I can imagine if they found a way to actually change human sex, then it would be the biggest news story in the world. It would be led by Nobel prize winning scientists, not some blue haired teenager on Twitter.

And this -
The engagement with Butterfly has been a very typical example of the "highbrow" posturing, 'splaining and word-bashing that males often do to females n the belief that they are cleverer and can argue all the silly women into submission.

It's so familiar - the smug, arrogant, patronising telling us what to think and how to feel. The male entitlement is showing big time. I'm not sure why people keep engaging with this person, it's obvious they have their own agenda.

The Nazi attitude to a "tomboy" would have been to expect her to get back in the kitchen and find a man, not tell her she was trans.

I was shown a German instructional pamphlet for German girls that basically did say that! All about how a German woman's duty to her country was to conform and have babies.

I wish I'd taken photos of it.

So because the Nazis may have murdered transexuals, women should allow self ID?

No, Butterfly. We're done with your sly allusions connecting actual feminism to Nazism.

You've come here to lecture us on what bad people we are for maintaining our boundaries.

Tough.

PurgatoryOfPotholes

Try to get hold of Madchen In Uniform, which shows how the militarised Prussian model boarding schools were nurseries for Nazi ideas about women.

....and also, Corporal Klinger in MASH, he says he was only doing it to get out of the army, but maybe he was really trans and the evidence was there but is now destroyed?

And it's yet more of the showily written "arguments" that the writer thinks will sound impressive but which are actually filled with logical holes and non-sequiturs pretending to be sequiturs.

Again, don't assume we can't read, think and rationalise. We can. If you want to make an argument for what you think, make it make sense.

My own post has jogged my memory.

Butterfly, you mentioned Dora Richter. Did you ever wonder what the wonderful transinclusive, altruistic surgeon who did Dora's (and Lili Elbe's) procedures did next?

Well, it's not a very nice story. You won't like it. He became the medical chief of the Luftwaffe. He also participated in the scientific abominations at Dachau, such as some pioneering [sarcasm] research into how long humans can survive hyperthermia. For this little wheeze, prisoners were immersed in freezing cold water and it was recorded how long they took to die. Have a little think about that.

He got some great medals out of it all, though. Hitler seems to have been delighted with him.

twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1408150527918186499?s=19

prisoners were immersed in freezing cold water and it was recorded how long they took to die.

And sometimes pulled out at death's door and placed naked against naked Jewish women to see if this would revive them via shared body heat. We know this because those papers also survive.

Quite. But by all means let's havea moment's silence for the unrecorded transwomen who may have been murdered by the Nazis. Never mind the six million others.

Where do trans men go? Is it appropriate for them to attend? Is it always, axiomatically? When is it not appropriate for them to attend? What about non-binary people? Detransitioners? Intersex people? Even if you ban transgenderism, they still exist. As does any flavour of GNC woman who doesn't reliably 'pass' within the category that is subjectively read as female. Birth sex is not, and has never been, a one-size-fits-all silver bullet for this issue, and in today's world it is not fit for purpose.
Nonsense. Birth sex is absolutely appropriate for this issue. And stop using GNC women like myself as a gotcha - we are still women even if we don't confirm to gender stereotypes.

Maybe we need a test? Awesome. Do we get a person to do so? What if they, in practice, have different subjective responses to gender cues? Who wants to be the Gender Cops whose job is to tell people all day long that sorry, no pass means no pass? How do you train the Gender Cops, and make sure their decisions are consistent?
Again nonsense. We've never needed a test before, and GNC women have always existed. There is no requirement for Gender Cops.

Maybe we need an AI, trained on a vast sample set, to be able to serve as a sorting hat?
Yeah, apps tried this and got in trouble for excluding transwomen as the AI was able to reliably identify them as male.

Waaaaaait. It let me join, using a photo of myself taken that morning at my least flattering, at the least favourable angle I could find.
Of course it did, you've already told us how well you pass. But it excluded many other transwomen.

You can't rely on visual cues and judgements;
Largely you can.

It'll exclude plenty of people you define as women, who are likely to have need of these provisions.
No, it won't. Unless an AI relies on facial hair instead of bone structure, and in any case, if transmen effectively self-segregate from women then that doesn't justify removing protections for women.

It's already horrendous enough that organisations like the TSA over in the states routinely scan traveller's genitals at airport security. Should we implement that here as well?
We already do, and scanner technology is advancing to recognise objects on the body regardless of presence or absence of penis. The groin is an area of concealment and we have already had a terrorist with TATP in his underpants who almost killed hundreds of people but luckily failed due to the IED becoming too damp to detonate.

Blimey purgatory and jaysmith, this thread really has turned educational now, thank you. Stuff there that I’ve never even heard of (it’s not cheerful stuff, sadly, but certainly interesting).

My children's late grandfather was in Dachau. He survived but most of his family were murdered by the Nazis, as was his wife's.

Their history hasn't persuaded me that women's sport should include men and that my children's late grandmother should not have expected and needed female only hospital wards, the same as I do.

Is there a point to this? The problem with the tropes like this same sex facilities are for Nazis one is that it captures most of the planet under the Nazi umbrella, no matter their background.

My sympathies, Fitt

I had to plough through the Wannsee Papers almost forty years ago to complete an assignment and it's still triggering for me to recall what I needed to read for academic credit.

Makes me angry.

...and now we have Godwinists who tell us that Marlene Dietrich in a top hat and tux was actually trans because that's what it looks like to them, now, which is all that matters because nothing else exists except here, now and solipsistic old them.

to you and yours, Fitt.

Jaysmith71 I haven't had to do any of it in anywhere near as much depth, and the stuff I covered as part of the rise of the Reich has still stuck with me.

Sophoclesthefox, well, this is what happens if you keep prodding people who do not live in the Empire of the Eternal Now with references to pre-war Germany. People make connections with the information they already know and bring up the wider context to it all.

Marlene Dietrich in a top hat and tux was actually trans

This would basically mean most women have been trans for the last century what with sometimes wearing trousers and all that What utter shite.

....not a direct quote, to be fair, but it is the clear implication of stating that Weimar Cabaret-land was full of transpeople but they were horribly misgendered by the Nazis who threw the evidence for this in the ovens along with the victims. Again, not a direct quote.

....Marlene on the wall:

Butterfly has used intersex, a term those with DSDs have asked not to be used along with asking TRAs like Butterfly to stop dragging them into this debate as some kind of 'gotcha'. Butterfly, same as all TRAs ignores and dismisses this request and disrespects them.

We've had 'Prosecco Stormfront' and the racist connotations of that.

We've had the comparison of feminists to Nazis.

We've had the homophobia of rewriting history and transing homosexuals.

We are now on the receiving end of people who are GNC being transed.

A veritable feast of misogyny, homophobia and racism and all because women on here have the temerity to say 'No'.

You are right CreepingDeath:

It's so familiar - the smug, arrogant, patronising telling us what to think and how to feel. The male entitlement is showing big time. I'm not sure why people keep engaging with this person, it's obvious they have their own agenda.

I am done with this poster, I've judged them on the content of their character and found them not to my taste.

Starmer is being interviewed by Andrew Marr tomorrow, hope he is pressed on the issue the same way Ed Davey was.

Jaysmith Indeed it is the clear implication. It's very unfortunate for the men and women hanged for war crimes at Nuremberg that they only burnt the evidence of their organised transphobia, but not the other documents of industrialised murder.

Query. I've never watched the Danish Girl but it's been widely condemned as problematic because a male actor (Eddie Redmayne) plays the role of Lili Elbe. Does Lili Elbe's surgeon Erwin Gohrbandt feature in it? The one who did the procedure?

Is it mentioned what he went on to do, as covered in this thread? Because I feel he needs to be contextualized not valorised. Bit problematic, otherwise.

de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Gohrbandt

Does Lili Elbe's surgeon Erwin Gohrbandt feature in it?

Doesn't look like it:

www.imdb.com/title/tt0810819/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm

Features this guy, possibly less problematic for box office:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Warnekros

(I only watched it to see Alicia Vikander's arse.)

So just the one who referred Elbe on to Erwin G. That's good, because I really don't have the time today to write a blog about how the cancellation of Eddie Redmayne has disguised the glorification of Nazi torturers in recent Hollywood cinema.

Women are not just highly perceptive to the physical attributes of males, I think we tend to have an empathic understanding of those times when males think they are more intelligent than we are, with little knowledge of our background, our education, our personality.

I recall an ex who felt he could determine IQ by handwriting. We analysed a number of scripts together, and it was clear that what he was interpreting as "superior intelligence", I was identifying as "male",

@Jaysmith71

....Marlene on the wall:

Well Celine Dion wore that backwards tuxedo at an awards ceremony or premiere so I’m a bit confused as what that makes that particular body with unknown to me genitalia.