Labour have committed to single sex spaces

[flumpetto]

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

Which is it, ButterflyHatched? Do you want service-related needs met so services work for all, or indulge affirmation desires through male inclusion in female-only provisions, thereby excluding some females?

I am looking forward to this reply too.

But yes, why is it that some posters are keen to point out that trans people will abuse an honour system, and will continue to ignore it once it has been explained or implemented?

While at the same time telling us that we need to believe people are whoever they say they are.

Luckily we also know that there are some trans people who do acknowledge that women need single sex spaces and agree to honour that. No matter how well they pass.

@Waitwhat23

The women can use the women's services, the men can use the men's services, and all those weird people who creep us out can use the one in betwee- Uh, I mean, anyone who can tolerate being in the same space as trans people can use the trans one.

I keep seeing comments from you Butterfly about this place being 'hostile' and 'unfriendly' and then I read things like this. The utter dismissal of women who need single sex spaces (for a variety of reasons, including trauma, religion, privacy concerns etc etc etc) - basically handwaved away
in a passive aggressive comment that they are ridiculous and/or intolerant.

Why don't these women's needs matter?

Not being funny, but I'm paying an inordinate amount of time and effort giving consideration and credence to the opinions of people who systematically misgender me, disregard the authenticity of all my life experiences, accuse me of appropriating their struggles whenever I elaborate on what I percieve to be a shared point of commonality in the interests of finding shared meaning, accuse me of failing to grasp the complex intricacies of a dynamic when I don't mention those same commonalities, and maintain that my mere existence is a fundamental assault on their rights!

All this, while demanding I unpick, explain and then retract statements referencing the clear and well documented ideological drift within gender critical feminist spaces toward reactionary trans-hostile attitudes as if it's a shocking, offensive implication with no basis in reality, despite being demonstrated repeatedly in the same damn thread and discussed as a known issue all over feminist spaces, including GC ones. What the hell was up with that comment earlier on this thread about Nazis losing the war because they...failed to put women in uniforms? Something that they are well documented as having actually done in support of visiting utterly chilling and horrifying atrocities as part of a largely successful attempt to exterminate a beautiful emerging community of people like myself across Europe in the 30's, setting back our research into and understanding of transgenderism by decades in the process. I didn't respond before because we've spent enough time getting sidetracked on that topic, but yikes that was at the very least in incredibly f*cking poor taste on a site possessing a well known nickname of 'Prosecco Stormfront'.

The signal to noise ratio is not exactly favourable here, but I've had some really great conversations with people despite that, and it's worthwhile whenever engaging with someone who is able to push past the entrenched transphobia. I absolutely and firmly believe there's a need for the provision of exclusive same-sex spaces where inclusion will cause harm and think there is great worth in discussing this like grownups, as it ultimately meaningfully impacts on all our lives.

I really enjoy discussing the meaningful bits, and occasionally experiencing a shred of an empathic connection with people who are at least vaguely within a similar age and (though they would vehemently reject the notion) range of experiences of patriarchical oppression as I.

I can see a path that would have led me to adopt the prevailing set of views present here, as harmful as that would have been for my own mental health - and I want to understand how one comes to embark upon that road, and I suppose, how to find ways to usefully bridge a set of fundamentally incompatible-seeming beliefs. I guess my frustration with some of the more opaque interpretations of gender out there - which I'll be honest, I tend to find a little baffling and often faintly appropriative of my own experiences, while trying to remain sensitive and supporting towards - makes it feel like there exists a vague possibility of shared understanding?

Of course women's needs matter, and I've been more than willing to discuss the necessary provisions of same-sex services. I'm not, however, going to indulge outright transphobia demanding right of way over those necessary discussions.

The signal to noise ratio is not exactly favourable here

I certainly agree.

It seems you have a different perception of your post’s tone and message than how those posts are being read by numerous people responding to you.

Let’s cut to the point.

Of course women's needs matter, and I've been more than willing to discuss the necessary provisions of same-sex services.

By this statement, do you or do you not support services that are for females only, that exclude any male regardless of how well they pass, or have modified their body.

No bringing in GNC women, transmen, female NB and those with DSDs. No distraction of ‘perceived male’ or ‘perceived female’. Because after reading post after post, laden with admonishments, laden with hyperbole, I read this sentence and I still don’t know if you mean absolutely single sex, or just single sex plus those who could use it because they pass.

As to misgendering, please report any posts that misgender you.

possessing a well known nickname of 'Prosecco Stormfront'.

Well known to abusive, misogynistic Twitter trolls, maybe, the rest of the world, not so much. But there you go again projecting your niche interests onto everyone else as if they should be all that matter.

Said "well known" nickname is well know amongst a bunch of predominantly white twitter users, who think it's absolutely hilarious to parasite off the emotional force invested in that word by the emotional labout of people from ethnic minorities.

It says far more about the people who make that crack than it does mumsnet. Did you know that the last activist who came here to tell us about how funny it was to call mumsnet that, registered under that name. Guess what board they chose to make their very first post? Our Black Mumsnetters subforum, created to give black MNers a safe space where they can talk about the effects of racism without having to Educate white people about it.

And this activist posted with a name making a direct reference to a white supremacy website there. Personally, I'm not sure whether that is a microaggression or a macroaggression against black mumsnetters, but it definitely ends in the word "aggression".

Have you considered not hanging out with racists in your free time?

using birth sex is not, and has never been a reliable marker

Why?

And please don’t use people with differences in sex development as an explainer.

Why has birth sex not been a reliable marker for distinguishing who uses single sex services and spaces?

And why is it not still a reliable marker?

We are told constantly that people are no longer denying their sex. Although, I have seen the constantly twisting on other platforms to present males as being females.

But if we take activists words that they are not denying the reality of their sex, why is sex not still a reliable marker?

using birth sex is not, and has never been a reliable marker

Then how did you know to transition from m2f?

people who systematically misgender me

If you point out where people are calling you by male pronouns I expect MN will delete it, as they are quite hot on that sort of thing. If that's not what you mean, I don't know what you expect people to be doing which they aren't?

Not being funny, but I'm paying an inordinate amount of time and effort giving consideration and credence to the opinions of people who systematically misgender me, disregard the authenticity of all my life experiences, accuse me of appropriating their struggles whenever I elaborate on what I percieve to be a shared point of commonality in the interests of finding shared meaning, accuse me of failing to grasp the complex intricacies of a dynamic when I don't mention those same commonalities, and maintain that my mere existence is a fundamental assault on their rights!

What has what is happening to you elsewhere got to do with the people on this site?

I know this isn't referring to the posts on here because I haven't seen any posts which 'misgender' you (and MNHQ delete any posts which 'misgender' another poster), and nobody has suggested that your 'mere existence' is a fundamental assault on their rights.

Sex passports? Appearance-based gatekeeping? Do you want to live in that world?

I'd like to live in a world where male people respected the right of female people to a female only space.

In that long post, Butterfly, you suggest that male transgender people such as yourself are constantly trying to enter such female only spaces, even when women have said that they don't want them there. That doesn't reflect well on those male transgender people. If they have so little respect for women and women's right to privacy, why would we want to let them in? You're not doing any favours to male transgender people by making them all sound so disrespectful and entitled.

You’re all doing so well to remain civil with your responses to @ButterflyHatched

I’m shaking with rage at some of their statements so I’m refraining from replying.

Keep on with the good work 👍🏼

I'm trying to understand what went wrong, and what we can do to fix it

You cannot fix this. The whole premise previously was so few that it was statistically unlikely to meet one or three in our lifetime.
Now frankly it's more likely that every time we pee there will be one.
That cat is now out of the bag, if we let the original 5000 or so in plus or minus a few as time goes on, we let all men in.
This means plenty of women will not be allowed out in society. Far more than 5000 women will not be able to live freely. That's not acceptable.
It's also not acceptable that prisons are mixed sex, refuges are mixed sex, hospital wards are mixed sex. All the other places that used to be our own and the vanishingly rare old skool transsexual are no longer the same.
I dont even know why you ask. We mention it often enough.

@ButterflyHatched's whiny post made me laugh.

I find that laughing - rather than getting angry - to silly posts is the best response.

Time for my list.

Additional (not third - they already exist), mixed-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms could be used not only by trans people but also:

• those who identify as non-binary
• fathers with daughters
• mothers with sons (many an AIBU thread about this one)
• all those people who proclaim they don't care who they pee next to
• and others

I can imagine times where I myself may choose to use such a space. I don't think any GC MNers are proposing that such spaces would only be for trans people.

That cat is now out of the bag
Agreed. The entitlement of the younger males is just too dangerous for women. We need single sex spaces.

Do you know what I find unfriendly? The casual dismissal of women's concerns.

"Labour's support for single sex spaces is too little too late" unherd.com/thepost/labours-support-for-single-sex-spaces-is-too-little-too-late/

I’m going to try to phrase this in the most diplomatic way that I can, being a diplomatic sort of a person.

I am absolutely all in favour of trans people coming here to respectfully engage. I welcome hearing alternative perspectives, and have no wish to live in a bubble.

However, the respect must be two way for a fruitful engagement. Oblique asides to “Prosecco Stormfront”, sly references to all the ways that feminists are really kind of like Nazis when you think about it, unsubstantiated assertions of “misgendering” that have not happened, referring to the age of posters as if that was meaningful and a refusal to respond to direct questions are not particularly respectful.

You’ve come to a feminist space, butterfly, presumably in the desire to share your experience that we might benefit from it. That’s fine. However, what is not fine is then complaining that it’s not to your taste, and should be changed and modified, better controlled to accommodate your preferences. You were always going to find women here disagreeing with you, challenging you, asking for evidence. It’s kind of what we do. Imagine if any of us were to go to a board for discussing trans issues, and try to explain the gender critical position- how long do you think we would last?

I can’t help but see this as a microcosm of what you would want to see happening in the world.

All women’s views are just as important as yours are. You wish to be accepted as a woman, then part of that is also accepting that your voice is, as mine is, one opinion, voicing one set of requirements, one set of preferences. I won’t prioritise yours more than you prioritise mine, because that is not how society works.

I think you have achieved your objective, and demonstrated it very thoroughly, and I would now like to get back to discussing whether the Labour Party, which I was a member of for years, can do anything to convince me that it takes the concerns of women seriously.

I think you have achieved your objective, and demonstrated it very thoroughly, and I would now like to get back to discussing whether the Labour Party, which I was a member of for years, can do anything to convince me that it takes the concerns of women seriously.

Indeed.

Even a moment's consideration will, however, show that this subject is a great deal more complex than credit is being given here; while an extremely small percentage (extrapolating GIDS admissions from the 2000 to 2015 period gives a very rough, optimistic estimate of 750 people spread across a range of ages, with varying degrees of visibility

This happens over and over, pick a decent timeframe and you can muddy the waters considerably.
So after 2015 when numbers rocketed?

You are being risible if you think we dont know about the %4000 increase in the amount of people referred to the tavistock, and those not referred are self medicating and calling themselves trans.

Third spaces will not work for these people. It's ludicrous to expect trans people who've never spent a moment of their adult lives living in their originally assigned gender roles to casually out themselves
every time they need a pee; and it's evidently not going to happen anyway short of forcing everyone to carry toilet passports

So never mind what women want and need to live in freedom? We will take your spaces anyway?
Nice, thanks for clarifying it.

I'm amused Butterfly that you're crying about feminists feministing in the feminist section of a website that you chose to visit.

It's not down to feminists to find solutions for transwomen. We are concerned with issues facing women.

It's ludicrous to expect trans people who've never spent a moment of their adult lives living in their originally assigned gender roles to casually out themselves
every time they need a pee;
Let's be honest. If a tw really does pass then nobody is going to question their presence in a toilet. However, prisons, refuges etc are very different. They are not open to everyone at all and they shouldn't be.

Single sex spaces rely on people respecting them. It's not going to happen. It is clear that there are males who will never respect that females should have a space without them
What they will never understand is just how much the dynamic changes when you include a male person (no matter how they identify) in a group of females. I think every woman is aware of this. I've noticed it in support groups and social groups. A male can never experience being in a female group as a woman because their very presence changes the dynamic

The mask slips & the gloves come off.

Every. Single. Time.

I don't care greatly for male people who hear women saying 'no thank you' & respond with 'yeah but...'.

@SpindleWorld

I am Karenicus! Well, for *@Antinerakus* anyway.

Such fun!

No! I am Katenicus!