Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour have committed to single sex spaces

999 replies

flumpetto · 22/09/2021 14:00

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
merrymouse · 24/09/2021 18:20

@Fieldofgreycorn

If you really, really want to have a conversation on the finer points of definition then I'll indulge - but I can't see how it isn't going to be profoundly unconstructive.

Well at least you now have a better understanding of where the harder core end of the GC contingent are coming from don’t you Butterfly? You can see where the lines are drawn and asserted. You can see how there is a focus on the absoluteness and immutability of sex and the need to separate spaces based on that essential biological definition of sex. Full stop. You can see how there is no compromise that will keep everyone happy. Not ever.

Sex is pretty immutable, but obvious that most services, facilities and spaces are NOT divided by sex.

If they were divided by sex without good reason it’s fairly likely that the providers would be guilty of sexism.

However, given that gender is impossible to define and is completely subjective, there are no reasons to categorise by gender. A service that can be segregated by gender rather than sex really should be unisex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/09/2021 18:22

harder core end of the GC contingent

Ah, so that's not the religious right in America, but rather the feminist board of a parenting forum primarily populated by British women who believe in sex based rights and child safeguarding? Got it.

RedDogsBeg · 24/09/2021 18:36

Why do women have to continually defend and justify single sex spaces and services, Butterfly? Why is we need them and we want them never enough?

teawamutu · 24/09/2021 18:37

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Butterfly, why are you ignoring all the questions asked of you? Do you not want to answer or do you not have an answer?
Would be delighted to be proved wromg, but I strongly suspect the answer is along the lines of 'I'm going to keep using women's spaces whether you like it or not and I'm going to keep trying to persuade you that you do like it'.
CorvusPurpureus · 24/09/2021 18:39

@Fieldofgreycorn

If you really, really want to have a conversation on the finer points of definition then I'll indulge - but I can't see how it isn't going to be profoundly unconstructive.

Well at least you now have a better understanding of where the harder core end of the GC contingent are coming from don’t you Butterfly? You can see where the lines are drawn and asserted. You can see how there is a focus on the absoluteness and immutability of sex and the need to separate spaces based on that essential biological definition of sex. Full stop. You can see how there is no compromise that will keep everyone happy. Not ever.

But of course there is a solution for everybody reasonable.

Separate sex & gender, acknowledging that sex =/= gender & that no one's personal beliefs about their own or other people's gender have anything much to do with their immutable & absolute sex.

Provide single sex spaces, with additional unisex spaces.

Work on increased tolerance for anyone who prefers to present or behave in ways which are likely to be stereotypically associated with the opposite sex within their particular culture. Everyone should be free to express themselves as they please, so long as that expression doesn't damage other people.

Accept plurality of belief. If a male wants to think of himself as being a woman, I might find that both deluded & offensive, but he's perfectly entitled to his belief. If someone disagrees with me that single sex spaces are important, they're welcome to hold & express their opinion. No one needs to be bandying about threats. (& yes, we all know which side of the argument is considerably more prone to doing that, but it needs to be an established general principle).

If your idea of 'compromise' involves overriding women's consent, then it's not compromise. It's simply capitulation.

RedDogsBeg · 24/09/2021 18:50

Accept plurality of belief. If a male wants to think of himself as being a woman, I might find that both deluded & offensive, but he's perfectly entitled to his belief.

But does not have the right to expect or force me to believe it, acknowledge it, or acquiesce to it.

Tibtom · 24/09/2021 18:52

I often wonder how this idea of compromise would go down with livestock farmers: "well boss, I know you said you wanted me to buy cows for the milking herd, but isn't 'sex is immutable" a bit hardline and old fashioned? These bullocks were going cheap and they msy identify as cows... "

Congressdingo · 24/09/2021 18:57

@Theeyeballsinthesky

What Artichoke said with bells on! I’ve encountered TW in woman’s toilets twice. Did it make me uncomfortable & nervous? Yes. Did I say anything? Of course not. They were male & much bigger than me. I’m sure those TW if asked would say that the woman in question (me) was fine with it because I didn’t say anything.
I want to add to this. I've met very few transwomen in the toilets over many years, back when they tried to be invisible, tried to look vaguely like a woman, were timid (well those I met anyway) I think tried is the wrong word but menopause strikes and I cant think of better. If I met three before I hit 45 that sounds about right. And of course they were allowed in, not given any backlash, probably would have been defended to some degree if it had become necessary. In the last 5 years I have met many more "transwomen" who are not the same type. They are bolshy, ignorant, rude, take over the space, loud, unmindful, vociferous, crashing into the space, crashing back out when they've upset every woman in there. And that's in a loo, where we can just not go. Imagine in a prison where theres no escape, imagine in the refuge again no escape or just dont go. This will cost women their lives. If that doesn't matter to butterfly? Then butterfly should not be in womens spaces, butterfly doesn't care about the sex class butterfly identified into. I was ok before, but no longer.
CharlieParley · 24/09/2021 18:57

If you don't think Nazis are critical of what they refer to as 'gender ideology' then I really don't think there's any point in arguing the toss, here.

Reading this I'm getting the strong impression that you don't understand the feminist position on gender at all.

Our objections and those who you call Nazis (by which I presume you mean the sort of Trump-voting Evangelist American Christians who are proudly right wing in the worst meaning of that word?) are not the same.

Anyway, assumptions aside, I don't think it is appropriate to use that word. It does have a defined meaning and rarely applies to the people it is used for today. I've met (actual) Neo-Nazis and they do not compare.

Anyway, no, Nazis are not critical of gender ideology in a comparable way. Half of them think that gender ideology refers to feminist liberation movements, which they oppose on principle because women are inferior in their world view. Those who could sort of vaguely be described as gender critical in the way you mean it, do so not because they oppose stereotypes but because they oppose those who do not conform to stereotypes. Neo-Nazis are macho to the extreme and despise men who are not. They also despise women who are anything other than feminine in demeanour and appearance.

The only position where we almost converge is that all males should be excluded from female-only provisions. They hold that to be true on principle, but not in practice. If they want access, they will not hesitate to claim it and the women be damned. When it comes to female-only provisions other than toilets, showers or changing rooms, they are opposed. And they agree with the former only because other men should not be allowed to lay eyes on their property. They are opposed even to refuges or rape crisis centres (violence against women and girls in that social group is high and their entitlement to control women and girls is part of their identity).

or: there are no psychological attributes of maleness because gender isn't real, and all behaviours are constructed.

And again, I don't think you understand our position. We're not saying "gender isn't real". At all. Lots of us have told you that we experience it as harmful, so do you honestly think we believe we're being harmed by something that doesn't exist?

(I will refer to gender from now on as sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes, because that is much clearer.)

What we are saying is that sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes are artefacts of human culture. They are human-made, and not natural, innate qualities of female and male humans.

Even though sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes are artefacts of human culture and not something we are born with, they are imposed from birth by both our families and the society we live in. And that has consequences. It shapes the child's early development, it shapes the child's understanding of their sex and it shapes their understanding of the world around them.

That leads to certain behaviours being positively reinforced and others being negatively reinforced. The outcomes are adult personalities moulded to accept certain preferences, mannerisms, behaviours and traits as desirable for their sex and others rejected as undesirable. By which mechanism sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes both appear true and are perpetuated.

My own belief in the feminist theory of socialisation notwithstanding, I must add that there is an ongoing, serious debate around whether some behaviours in particular are due to nature or nurture in various disciplines. There are for instance a lot of theories attempting to explain why males commit almost all violent crimes. The feminist theory of socialisation (i.e. the imposition of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes) is but one of them.

What the researchers who posit innate psychological attributes of maleness suggest however is not that these attributes are part of a gender identity (one's personal preferences for the stereotypes associated with one or the other sex) but part of sex differences between males and females. It remains to be seen whether they are right about that. But nothing they say supports the doctrine of gender identity in any way, because they believe as we do that socialisation plays a major role in shaping the personalities of most men and women. And that it does so along quite predictable paths.

So to recap:

Adherents to the doctrine of gender identity agree with enshrining stereotypes in policies, regulations and laws, as long as everyone can choose which stereotypes they prefer. (Your preferences dictate which sex you are.) They believe we are born with a preference for one of the straitjackets, and everyone should be allowed to wear the straitjacket of their choice, and should be allowed to try either of them on for size first.

Those you call Nazis object to the doctrine of gender identity because they believe people should always conform to the stereotypes associated with their sex. They agree with enshrining stereotypes in policies, regulations and laws, as long as that reflects traditional ideas about male and female. (Your sex dictates which stereotypes apply to you.) Deviations are undesirable and those who do not conform to the stereotypes prescribed and proscribed for their sex must be punished. They want everyone to wear the straitjacket stitched together for their sex.

We object to the doctrine of gender identity, because we reject the idea that stereotypes are natural, desirable or beneficial. (Your preferences do not dictate your sex, your sex does not dictate that any stereotypes apply to you.) We believe that sex is the only workable and fair foundation for policies, regulations and laws. We want to abolish the stereotypes so that anyone can freely live their lives according to their preferences. We want to burn the straitjacket.

somethinginoffensive · 24/09/2021 19:00

Funny, we seem to have been derailed from discussing whether Labour Party policies do actually protect women's rights to discussing how a particular male person feels about women's rights.

It's so incredibly tedious.

Unfortunately, I don't trust Labour at all, they think some men are women so women's spaces include men.

And round we go again.

ANewCreation · 24/09/2021 19:01

They've never experienced male adulthood and have been experiencing living under the patriarchy while percieved and treated as female from ages six and even younger.

Nope.

There is only one surefire way in this world to experience male adulthood and that is by being born male and living to adulthood. And the only way to experience female adulthood is by being born female.

That's it.

How a male person dresses, what cosmetic surgery they have, their interests and personality and any medication they take can only shape their still fundamentally male experience.

They may have wildly different experiences to their male peers, some of which will bear some similarity to those some women experience, but those by definition are never going to be 'female' experiences.

In a family, where the vast majority of our early socialisation occurs, a 6 year old male child will never be treated as female. Mums have bathed them and changed their nappies. They can't unlearn the fact their child is male.They are treated as a 6 year old male child who thinks they are 'a girl', a construct which can only be built on a pink foundation of sexist stereotypes.

And as they grow, no one will ever need to sit them down and do the period talk; if they are raped they will never run the risk of pregnancy; childbirth and menopause will never be a factor in their lives- nothing about their reproductive sex class has changed.

And until the Labour Party acknowledge what women actually are - the female reproductive sex class, no more, no less - and that there are situations where my female sex matters and times when it really doesn't - they will never again have my vote.

SpindleWorld · 24/09/2021 19:02

Do I trust Labour today?

No.

CorvusPurpureus · 24/09/2021 19:12

Exactly RedDogsBeg.

I can't tell him he can't believe that, BUT I can tell him I don't share that belief.

Which is exactly how civilised societies treat religious belief, for example.

CharlieParley · 24/09/2021 19:28

Well at least you now have a better understanding of where the harder core end of the GC contingent are coming from don’t you Butterfly? You can see where the lines are drawn and asserted. You can see how there is a focus on the absoluteness and immutability of sex and the need to separate spaces based on that essential biological definition of sex. Full stop. You can see how there is no compromise that will keep everyone happy. Not ever.

You say this like that's a) news and b) a bad position for women's rights campaigners to hold.

It cannot have escaped you Fieldofgreycorn that compromise (agreed without reference to or consultation with women) is what created this mess. Further compromise is not going to solve it.

In any case, compromise does not typically keep everyone happy. It requires each side to make concessions. We already conceded more than we can bear. We're not the ones who need to compromise now. You try it for a change.

littlbrowndog · 24/09/2021 19:45

Why do you think women are pissed by this.

It’s led to this

My wee girl my aunt my sis my cousins. Are no longer girls or women

We are just people. And this is in women’s health month. Whoever the fuck women are as the word must not be used

Labour have committed to single sex spaces
littlbrowndog · 24/09/2021 19:46

Actually it’s worse. We are just bodies.

Lumps

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/09/2021 20:02

Christ.

Artichokeleaves · 24/09/2021 20:03

Please embrace your dehumanisation and disenfranchising to provide better happiness and freedom to male people. 'Bodies with vaginas'.

Yeah, no.

A social contract requires reciprocation.

CharlieParley · 24/09/2021 20:04

@littlbrowndog

Why do you think women are pissed by this.

It’s led to this

My wee girl my aunt my sis my cousins. Are no longer girls or women

We are just people. And this is in women’s health month. Whoever the fuck women are as the word must not be used

I told my relatives abroad that this was happening. (Aged 15 to 74) They thought it was so offensive, they struggled to believe me. They didn't want to, it did not compute.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 24/09/2021 20:09

A social contract requires reciprocation.

This. I feel no need to abide by an agreement that everyone is who they say they are, except me, because I get told I'm "cis". A contract literally requires exchange between both partners.

If there is no consideration from you (in both legal and lay senses!), then no deal.

CharlieParley · 24/09/2021 20:12

The Lancet in lockstep with the Taliban - women are not fully actualized human beings, we are "bodies with vaginas".

Of course, the Lancet has not once used "bodies with penises" or similar when writing about men.

The truly bizarre thing is that this is all about the shame associated with menstruation. And the Lancet seeks to remedy the shame about menstruation by disappearing the women and girls who experience it.

I feel such shame on their behalf right now and I hope one day they will all be engulfed by their own shame at dehumanising women in this way. And all in aid of an unscientific, male supremacist ideology. Well played, Lancet, well played. The Taliban salute you.

ArabellaScott · 24/09/2021 20:15

'body with vagina'

Wow. So respect. Much humanisation.

CharlieParley · 24/09/2021 20:20

And we are still expected to compromise, Fieldofgreycorn?

Meet me in the middle says the unjust man...

How stupid do you think we are?

littlbrowndog · 24/09/2021 20:26

Am just a body with a vagina

By a respected journal

For scientists and medical people

Just a body attached to a vagina

So fucking pissed by this. So fucking pissed. Can you hear me shouting

Waitwhat23 · 24/09/2021 20:30

And as someone on that thread pointed out, on the 20th of this month The Lancet tweeted about prostate cancer. Let's take a wild guess what word they used to name those who suffer from prostate cancer. Ejaculators? Jizzers? People with a penis? Sperm producing bodies even?

Nope. The word they used was men.

So all this 'inclusive' bullshit is just rank misogny as it doesn't apply both ways. And given the continuing minimising and dismissing of women's health worries and bodily autonomy by the medical profession the Lancet have shown their true colours.