Labour have committed to single sex spaces

[flumpetto]

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

Fgs

This is a total shitshow. A het male sexist horrible take on what women are. Combined with exploitation of our socialised ' don't make a fuss' behaviour with an addition of challenging a male can be dangerous.

I just don't understand!!! I'VE ALREADY DONE ALL THE LEGWORK MYSELF, WHY IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT I JUST BE TREATED LIKE ANY OTHER FUCKING WOMAN!?

There are lots of things that are unachievable no matter how hard you try because they are out of your control. Changing sex is impossible and other people's perceptions are ungovernable. People should treat you courtesly but you can't make them believe a lie.

It reminds me of this tweet.

Both of these people are clearly very troubled and they will never be able to recover while they rely on members of the public to affirm and validate them instead of looking internally.

Woman need safe spaces away from people with penis'. Especially those who have been abused by men in past. Common sense dictates this but I am surprised trans not included in female space. No doubt they will be taking places that provide this too court.

Stop defining me by this disgusting fucking reality.

What a giveaway that phrase is.

Thread on here recently revealed that men have NO IDEA of the subtle interactions between women that go on in real life. Never noticed them. Oblivious.

I also read a piece by a transman who said that a massive difference. And given that transmen often 'pass' pretty successfully. Was they really noticed that was gone and missed those subtle interactions.

In the trend end males have NO IDEA of all the stuff that women and girls do all the time. To acknowledge each other. To share concerns. To indicate I've got your back. To say yes I'm keeping an eye as well I'm here. All with tiny glances, half smiles. Split seconds of eye contact.

I never even realised that it's just going on so much. Man who is potentially dodgy on a tube train. I've clocked him. Yes so have I. Oh me too. Seems ok for now. We're here so safety in numbers. Yes he's a bit of a concern.

All the time. All the time.

And men it seems have NO IDEA. that is this is happening.

And so. 'feminine' clothes. Check. Women in this single sex place haven't stared / said anything. They have no idea!

Yes I'm sure some tw pass in every way. The combination of height, build, hands, feet, face shape, gait and so much more means no one can tell. Well ok then we won't know in a bog. I mean so what because in real life it is really hard.

And a main part of that is because women and girls grow up learning in so many ways to constantly risk assess when strangers about. And we're not looking for clothes makeup. We're looking often subconsciously for threats. Which invariably come from males.

And clocking sex is totally different to clocking a costume.

This idea that butch lesbians are seen as men. Same thing. They are female. We know what female people look like. Height. Breasts. Hips. Walk. Behaviour. The subtle communication. Face. Feet. Hands. Mannerisms. Shoulder width. No one thing. Everything.

But males don't do those assessments. Certainly not when they see a person they take as female apparently because skirt etc. Maybe they do it with other men? And they have no idea of all this female to female communication that is happening.

But men know best and so here we are.

Being told by a male how it is in our world.

Arrogance.

In the end back when it was a very few people. Things were different. Women generally turned a blind eye.

Now it's a free for all. Woman girl have been redefined among orgs etc that run the things where sex segregation was the norm to say hey whatever. Come on in!

And now female is being redefined.

This movement has fucked things for the trans people who have been around for years. And for women and girls. Full stop.

Nice job.

But you know. Males want something. And women not handing all our words and spaces over on a silver plate is VIOLENCE AND BIGOTRY.

Meanwhile the blokes who actually attack trans (GNC gay people etc) are not in the picture.

Women's words and boundaries are more heinous than a group of men kicking the shit out of someone.

So what's new.

I work in A&E and as an urgent GP, so I frequently examine people who didn't expect to have to get undressed in front of a stranger when they got dressed that morning, i.e. they got dressed as their usual selves, because they weren't expecting to be taken ill. I have worked in central London and several other large cities with a fair number of gender non-conforming people.

I have never, ever been surprised when someone turns out to be biologically male. I have very occasionally been surprised that someone is biologically female.

And nuttery like this: "Women are not discriminated upon based on biological sexAT ALL, we're discriminated against for being women." Guess someone had better let those afab folks in Afghanistan in on the secret.

I guess the guy who abused me at 14 had misunderstood my identity then. I don't identify as a woman, in the modern conceptualised, I am agender. If only I'd told him that before he used his power to put his hands all over me. I could have avoided all those years of trauma. Silly me. Total A-class nuttery. Arrogant shitty nuttery as I think maybe women are best placed to say what their experiences are.

we're not looking for clothes makeup. We're looking often subconsciously for threats. Which invariably come from males.

Yep. Stance, size, shoulder set, facial expression, eye contact too shifty/too intense, responses, exits, escape routes, possible defensive weapons, steadiness (wobbliness might mean drunk), smell (booze, body odour, red flags), where are the hands, and then there's navigating any interaction, how to pitch it to keep it breezy, firm, not rude, not confrontational, but not scared, not meek, not intimidated, and then afterwards, when can you look round to check, because you need to but you don't want to be seen to do so, etc. We clock male subconsciously in a split second, and the next thoughts are a very very fast risk assessment, it's not an appraisal of make up techniques.

That is standard woman-passing-male in the street. All done it a few micro-seconds. Completely habitual.

to you, Whatis.

My best illustration of the difference is-

One day going into work building. V tall all lifts.

Bit late so no one else waiting..

Lift came and as doors opening someone gave me a shove from behind.

Naturally I had that split second of oh shit pushing into lift no one about fuck fuck and spun round.

Male colleague who is genuinely v nice was tee-hee got you. Morning!

And I went into the lift with him and went off at him. What the hell did you think you were doing. You scared the life out of me. I thought I was being pushed into the lift by someone to do fuck knows what. What were you thinking. Etc.

He looked baffled. Someone going to attack you? At WORK?????

He apologised etc but this illustrates how men I'd imagine pretty much all of them just have no sodding idea at all.

Unfortunately Keir Starmer by now has a level of credibility that makes Boris Johnson look like Ghandi. So not much of whatever he says is likely to mean anything should the tide change and it become useful for him to say the opposite.

But I'm glad this issue has come up in the party. It would be terrible if they ran out of things to argue with each other about.

But you know what. All of this stuff. Yes it needs to be discussed on here and other places it's allowed.

But it won't be listened to. Acknowledged. Considered. Anything.

Women and girls have never had a decent equal voice in society. Proportionate attention to our issues etc.

Eg we've been shouting about rape violence etc for years. And sadly child sexual abuse seems to come under women's issues and so gets the same treatment.

Oh dear that's bad. Why didn't you mention it before? And I mean all these things aren't so bad. Also there's lies and misunderstandings. Ruin a good man's life. His word against hers no witnesses. Oh well images of CSA, flashing. So common can't deal with it. Way too many men. And in the end they aren't contact are they. For the viewers. The flashers. I mean in the end it's just impossible! The justice system is trying honest but you know. And from some areas. Male violence is unfair. It's people. Women do it too! In fact maybe even more than men but it's not found out. Oh no look man has killed a woman/ girl! Monster. I mean sure they have s list of reports to police about them long as your arm but those things were so trivial naturally they were ignored. Who could have known he would do this?

This is all the same. It's all the same. When it comes to anything which predominantly or only affects women and girls/ children it's... In the end it's our problem to live with same as ever and around the world.

@NiceGerbil

My best illustration of the difference is-

One day going into work building. V tall all lifts.

Bit late so no one else waiting..

Lift came and as doors opening someone gave me a shove from behind.

Naturally I had that split second of oh shit pushing into lift no one about fuck fuck and spun round.

Male colleague who is genuinely v nice was tee-hee got you. Morning!

And I went into the lift with him and went off at him. What the hell did you think you were doing. You scared the life out of me. I thought I was being pushed into the lift by someone to do fuck knows what. What were you thinking. Etc.

He looked baffled. Someone going to attack you? At WORK?????

He apologised etc but this illustrates how men I'd imagine pretty much all of them just have no sodding idea at all.

Yep so much this ^

That trend a while back where women shared all the things they do habitually to risk assess and try to keep themselves safe. Most men have no idea, even the "progressive" ones.

If you tell them, you get mildly shocked noises and faces and then it's like it drops out of their other ear. That's if you don't get how you could do it better or NAMLT

Was discussing muzzling my dog recently with a family member and said one of my considerations against was that as a single woman, walking alone in quiet, dark, isolated areas I would be a choice target. If I muzzle my dog, I remove one thing that could provide a distraction for me to get away or protection from an attack I didn't see coming. Also my dog couldn't defend himself either from an attacker who tried to neutralise him first.

Male family member also walks his dog alone in similar area had never considered this when he muzzled his dog and it had never crossed his mind the risks to me out walking.

I think tbh that many women and girls aren't even actively aware of all the things!

Like the acknowledge glance clock stuff between us.

I think I only realised when I read the piece by the transman.

And I was well I mean it didn't occur to me that's not you know just standard.

That writer said it was really hard to get used to. Obv they still did it automatic and realised immediately they had to break the habit as man eye contact woman is totally different.

Said men don't make sure contact even if something weird is happening. It made them feel much more isolated.

I've noticed since that women in general often tend to give acknowledgment when passing on less busy streets etc.

I had no idea.

How much else is going on between us that we don't even notice?

It is interesting as TW is one of the first movements that is demanding actively from others. It is saying you need to immediately recognize me as a woman and your own identity as a woman (call yourself cis) and let me in women’s spaces and sports or you are a bigot.

Being gay didn’t demand from others that they do anything, except have respect and tolerance. To not discriminate. As far as I know, the recent BLM also was saying have respect, recognize racism, stamp it out. It was not saying, I have a new name for you, I need to be immediately reocognized in this way otherwise you are a bigot.

TW for a long time also did not make up a new name for women, and as far as I was aware, were respectful around women, and although wanted to be known as women, and use women’s names at work, but did not say that biological sex wasn’t real. Many of those TWs had major surgery and still did not assert that they were women, that they were TW.

NCBlossom Yes it's just male entitlement and tantrums when they don't get their way instantly.

Old school Transsexuals IME are as you described, just quietly trying to live their lives and I accept them and support them. Everyone deserves that dignity.

They are being shouted down and abused by the new TWAW mob because of their reasonable beliefs and courtesy towards women's lived experiences. There have been some really great posters here who are TW who have shared their nasty experiences with the entitled lot.

The new lot are just so bloody aggressive!

@WhoIsPepeSilva

NCBlossom Yes it's just male entitlement and tantrums when they don't get their way instantly.

Old school Transsexuals IME are as you described, just quietly trying to live their lives and I accept them and support them. Everyone deserves that dignity.

They are being shouted down and abused by the new TWAW mob because of their reasonable beliefs and courtesy towards women's lived experiences. There have been some really great posters here who are TW who have shared their nasty experiences with the entitled lot.

The new lot are just so bloody aggressive!

This. I worked with a transsexual for three months once and didn’t realise that Alexa was once an Alex. Really lovely person, no entitlement. But the world has definitely changed and clearly some men want in. I doubt their motivations.

Male entitlement as a "paradigm" seems to have lost a lot of it's 2000 millennium shine.

Who would have thought it?

It feels like territory marking.

Invading someone’s territory is where you break down their boundaries, you give them a new identity and take away their old one. You replace the status quo with your own. You repress any opinions with threats, aggression and violence.

That, unfortunately, is what the newer TW feels like to me. At first I was completely OK about it. Each to their own. Except then I realised it wasn’t each to their own. I was being referred to by a name I had never consented to or wanted (cis). I was told that any spaces for women were now not for women. And that although I was a woman, that wasn’t even real anymore, it was all a spectrum. And if I even expressed an opinion about that, then apparently that was akin to ‘war’ and therefore I could have anger, violence unleashed on me because I was no longer allowed to have an opinion about being a woman. That was no longer my territory, it was TWs territory.

It was old school transsexuals who got us where we are today. They campaigned for the original GRA and some of the same people (like Stephen Whittle and Christine Burns of Press for Change) are now campaigning for self-ID.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

This is the Press for Change definition of transgender:

In the broadest use of the term, a transgender person crosses the conventional boundaries of gender; in clothing; in presenting themselves; even as far as having multiple surgical procedures to be fully bodily reassigned in their preferred gender role.

In this report we will normally use the term 'trans people' to describe those people who might be described as falling broadly within this context, as it has become the term of normal use since the coining of it by Press for Change for their 1996 mission statement: "Seeking respect and equality for ALL trans people"[2]. People who identify as transsexual are a small part of this spectrum and may or may not have had medical treatment to alter their physical appearance

I do laugh at how we are dismissed as reactionary old women on the wrong side of history when the antiquated opinions of Christine Burns are trotted out.

Agree NCB feel territory marking and like an attempt to remove hard won rights and push us back into the narrow confines of stupid stereotypes. Just oppressive behaviour with a veneer of something else on top.

Tbf other movements have fought to hand things over. And also for people to change their perceptions.

Eg Racism over the years and in various countries.
For people to see them as equal rather than lesser. In all the ways that lesser has meant in the past.
To open up political systems, jobs, beaches, all the things that were not space for them.
Etc.

Women similarly fought and still fight for people to see them as equal rather than lesser.
Similarly to access political power and certain jobs.
To be allowed to work after marriage/ babies.
Still fighting for these things and so much more sadly.

And so on and so on. Maternity leave. Resented by plenty of men and some women too. A feeling of it being an undeserved reward.. Unfair.

And on and on.

So yes they did really.

What they didn't do was abolish the existing group as a class. Refuse to allow them to discuss their own issues. None of them were members of the dominant class wanting to opt in to a different class. Tell the other class that they knew who they were better than they did. Tell them that their issues were irrelevant and they were not disadvantaged. Tell them that if they were it wasn't due to the colour of their skin at all but something with no clear agreed definition.

And so on etc.

That's why pro gender > sex people have hijacked every movement in the past that I can think of and drawn false equivalences, nicked slogans and arguments. And then in a stunningly arrogant and crass move, turned them against the groups who took so much time struggle thinking etc to frame them in the first place.