Labour have committed to single sex spaces

[flumpetto]

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

Was that a drive-by scolding? It looked like it was hurriedly thrown from a passing car-window.

*I think the threat is that all the men will want to shag them and not us

To be honest, given the way the porn fuelled sex is going, I'd be quite relieved*

I think give them the men and beauty pageants, if they'd leave women to our female only spaces services and sports. Would be a fair swap.

"A little reasearch (and not believeing what the press say) is helpful. The Independant have only quoted a small part of the statement. I would suggest reading it all before basing a view on the selective quotation. You may not like the rest as much"

You're a lawyer, aren't you? As a fellow professional, I would suggest learning to spell properly.

Oh and if you remember the genuine look of bafflement on Genuwine's face at the thought he was expected to be attracted to India Willoughby in celebrity Big brother. 😆😅

I'm not saying I'm not happy for them to have the men, it's just that men have agency. I don't think they want to be given. Unless the transwomen are going to usher in a brand new age of oppressive matriarchy, in which men are their mothers' or wives property, it's a no-go.

Read this: www.vice.com/en/article/wjq99z/why-cant-my-famous-gender-nonconforming-friends-get-laid

I'm not saying I'm not happy for them to have the men, it's just that men have agency.

Agreed.

Wherever, I will never vote for an activist lawyer.

Trying to grasp a shred of hope. I would like to be able to vote Labour again. At the moment I couldn't vote at all unless there was a local candidate with a manifesto that explicitly promised to protect women-only spaces, and I'm annoyed that the fundamentally ludicrous notion that men can be women has gained so much traction.

I think it was timeisnotaline who talked about tw using women's things for years no probs.

This would be my take and experience and how things have changed. And also this knicker inspector thing that seems to get Twitter types excited is drivel and there's good reason it's drivel. If they listened to women even briefly they would know why it's driven but no. They don't give a shit about women and find much more interest in laughing at the women and girls that are/ will be impacted.

It's quite easy really.

In the olden days yes tw did use women's stuff in some circs.
Tw then meant GRC (small numbers), those without a GRC who were presenting as a woman etc full time. Pretty much.

If they 100% passed and behaved totally normally then well obv no one would know.

And I mean I don't know obv but I would put money on the number of tw who totally pass in real life being really not many.

However I've been in bogs etc in places that were not you know a free for all night club or something. Department stores etc. And with a tw in the queue who IME at least. Would be generally giving an air of feeling a bit anxious and trying to be as invisible as possible. And all the women clocked, quick automatic assessment. Seems fine. Politely ignore.

However if a person who was clocked as male came in (more likely in pubs clubs) the women could say this is the ladies. Not leaving? Staff bouncers can be told.
If male and in clothes generally for women. Quiet? Blind eye. Behaving in a. Well. Male way? Off you go.

So tw got a pass assuming no weird behaviour. And we were able to get stroppy at any males generally deemed get out.

NOW we are told challenging is bigoted. Could be a hate crime. TWAW. Internal ID is unrelated to presentation. And anyway women can have short hair and wear suits etc it's sexist to say otherwise.

And because of that ALL BETS ARE OFF.

it was ok before for everyone.

This current situation has fucked things up for women AND transsexuals.

And that's because it's about men's rights.

Of course the prisons sports etc etc is just a no no no. And always was.

But how can a biological male ever be more feminine than an actual biological woman?
That's only the case if you happen to think clothes, sparkles, pink, lipstick, heels, pillow fights, nail varnish, long hair, and make up are what makes someone a woman.

Which is what a lot of TW seem to think.
Women on the other hand, know they are women to their very cells. No matter how they dress, their physical shape and size, their haircut, their lack of makeup or 'feminine' clothes, their lack of interest in 'girly' pursuits and hobbies.
And we are HATED for it. Because we don't have to try. We just ARE.

It's very simple isn't it?

XX or XY = sex classification

@NiceGerbil sums up how I feel, plus of course the concern re easy access to life changing drugs for confused teens with as always seems to happen more consequences for girls.

@RVN123

But how can a biological male ever be more feminine than an actual biological woman? That's only the case if you happen to think clothes, sparkles, pink, lipstick, heels, pillow fights, nail varnish, long hair, and make up are what makes someone a woman.

Which is what a lot of TW seem to think.
Women on the other hand, know they are women to their very cells. No matter how they dress, their physical shape and size, their haircut, their lack of makeup or 'feminine' clothes, their lack of interest in 'girly' pursuits and hobbies.
And we are HATED for it. Because we don't have to try. We just ARE.

Exactly. We are hated because no matter what we will always be women and will always be viewed as such on first sight.

Posts like the femininity one upthread are frankly bizarre.

And they reveal way more about the poster than they probably realise.

@RVN123

But how can a biological male ever be more feminine than an actual biological woman? That's only the case if you happen to think clothes, sparkles, pink, lipstick, heels, pillow fights, nail varnish, long hair, and make up are what makes someone a woman.

Which is what a lot of TW seem to think.
Women on the other hand, know they are women to their very cells. No matter how they dress, their physical shape and size, their haircut, their lack of makeup or 'feminine' clothes, their lack of interest in 'girly' pursuits and hobbies.
And we are HATED for it. Because we don't have to try. We just ARE.

I had a realisation ages ago that I think may have some merit. I'll keep it brief!

Big brother a while back. One contestant young man drag queen.
Didn't get his drag gear on until been in there a while. Once they all got to know him.

Came out in gear. V high heels, tiny skirt, long legs, low cut top I assume padded out or however it's done. Massive long blonde hair. Full make up big eyelashes etc.

He's a good looking young man and he looked good. It suited him. Had good cheekbones etc.

The women were all wahey hooray omg you look fab!

The men didn't say much. Anyway he went and sat with them and they were obviously deeply uncomfortable. I think there was even a jokey fancy me then conversation. And what it was in the end was that they knew he was a man. But their brains were taking in legs heels hair etc and telling them sexy lady. They were confused and unhappy about it.

With the objectification of women that has always gone on. And the fact that men generally have no need really to assess as we do the other way around. I think probably lots of men DO see the trappings. And some, maybe not much else. Hair legs boobs heels. Sexy up for it. Ogle.

If that is what's going on. Then the fact that donning the trappings turns you into a woman/ sexy woman etc. Suddenly makes sense.

Also if pretty much all we are is sex objects then that would be constantly in our thoughts as there's not really anything else we do/ are.

Just a theory!

RVN123

The point that femininity is a moveable feast. Different around the world and in the past. Also seems to escape attention. I mean or is ignored obv. Especially because discussing it gets into FEMINISM (hiss!).

It could be-

Very modest/ covering clothes
Ceding to men on all matters
Making all sorts of decorative body alterations eg the women with the stretched necks
Adhering to certain duties IE cooking, cleaning, children. Serving the men who are the ones who make the decisions.

Etc etc.

This is just my opinion, but I have never met a feminine trans woman. I have spent a fair bit of time with TW and they were a variety such as short skirt big boobs, or subtler quietly modestly dressed and more.

Feminine is to me a little elusive, hard to pin down. I know that I am very feminine, apparently, I’ve been told so many times. Even though I often dress in trousers and trainers, have strong opinions, (as I do), am a scientist. Someone once said it was just the way I moved.

I know guys who are called effeminate. But it’s not the same as femininity. It seems more dramatic, gesturised.

I have know one or two men I’d also say were feminine. Neither were TW but just has a similar quality.

I guess I’m saying some qualities are so complex, almost ethereal, that they really aren’t the clothes, the hormones, the learnt or copied gestures. They are more innate, like femininity, some people just are and it’s not about choosing to be.

@ArabellaScott

It's an odd point, isn't it, Pots?

scared of women more feminine than them

My femininity varies. It's not generally speaking a fixed or 'innate' thing, it depends on mood. Because 'femininity' is gender - it's just a collection of arbitrary behaviours. I am not scared of feminine women, nor of feminine males, for that matter.

Will always be a woman, though. From before birth to until every cell of my bones has decayed.

I always translate "scared of women more feminine than them" to "scared we'll take all the male sexual attention away from you" to which I giggle and invite them to please! Take all the sexual attention away from me, thank you! No seriously, thank you!

Then I get mad because really it's what @PurgatoryOfPotholes says What worries me is the physical intimidation factor of their bodies in a confined space on women who have already been subjected to sexual violence. plus religious considerations, etc etc etc.

It's just so rage inducing when it's not laughable.

Well yes eg Paris L writing about how getting cat called was brilliant.

Oh and women and girls who hate it and would like it to stop are being mean trying to stop all the fun.

That earlier post and comments like that cat calling one. And so so many others.

Shout in neon that what being a woman means to some is nothing to do with female experience.

It seems to be all about well. What a sexist man thinks being a woman is all about.

Shallow
Everything for male gaze
Competing over male gaze
Revelling in male attention
Dressing and behaving in ways that are deliberately chosen to appeal to men

Also we're eternally between age about 13 and 40.

And that's it. Do that congratulations! You're a woman.

The idea that elderly women don't want males in single sex spaces because they hate that they look hotter than them is. Well it's an interesting argument for sure!

And PL was speaker at International Women's Day after those comments which included something to the effect of "enjoying being treated as a piece of meat"

Exactly it's the equivalent of "you're just jealous" is an infantile way of shutting down an important discussion about women's real and not misplaced fears.

I really wish there was a party that really took a stand for women. I didn't vote last time either because I was just at a complete loss. Whichever party I chose I would have been rubber stamping my ok on policies I totally disagree with. There didn't seem to be a better bad option.

Going back to Starmer for a bit - It's not possible to drop the far left off a cliff. Certainly illegal, and pretty undesirable for many other reasons. So some form of accommodation is inevitable. But not yet because there isn't a clear way to do it. I'm quite happy to see "we support EA2010" for the time being. At least it's going in the right direction. But until substantial numbers in the Labour party accept that the world is real and has a material structure, and that shouting slogans does not change this reality, I don't really see what he can do. He's playing a waiting game.

The men didn't say much. Anyway he went and sat with them and they were obviously deeply uncomfortable. I think there was even a jokey fancy me then conversation. And what it was in the end was that they knew he was a man. But their brains were taking in legs heels hair etc and telling them sexy lady. They were confused and unhappy about it.

With the objectification of women that has always gone on. And the fact that men generally have no need really to assess as we do the other way around. I think probably lots of men DO see the trappings. And some, maybe not much else. Hair legs boobs heels. Sexy up for it. Ogle.

Posie Parker (Kellie-Jay Keen Minshull) has made this point in the past too. Many men can't see beyond hair/legs/tits/teeth. If someone has those things, a lot of men don't pay any further attention and just see 'woman'.

It's going to be interesting at the Labour Party conference.