Against White Feminism

[Allycott]

Yesterday I heard an interview with the author of this book. I listened to her views and rationale for writing the book.

Has anyone read it?

And I didn't mean to imply you were racist @Jaysmith71. It was just an utterly bizarre accusation

....Anyway, I came on here to talk about the films of Amma Asante:

Interesting to watch Oprah's gushing review of 'Belle,' which in her eyes showed the wealthy and (really) priveliged Dido Elizabeth as a victim who fought back, rather than an anomaly that exposes the nonsense of racism, which is how most British people saw it.

Also very impressed with "A United Kingdom," which seems to have sunk without trace in the US. Asante shows how racism works in Africa quite beautifully in that it's all about politics and power, a hegemony that is blown apart not by marches or direct action but by the love of a black man and a white woman for each other.

Amen to that.

And where are all these threads with the dodgy tone? Of which there have been 'a lot'.

They must have passed me by. Do share.

....Of course in the USA there was the film, "Loving," which tells the tale of their great mixed marriage narrative that changed their law, but I wonder if the relative lack of interest in "A United Kingdom" is in part because it has a black man and a white woman at the centre of its drama, and not a white man and black woman, as in "Loving?"

It just means that feminism is for all women and girls. And that people on here carping about how feminists are always being expected to solve everything is irrelevant in this context.

I agree that feminism is for all women and girls.

I also think that people tend to gravitate and focus on issues that they feel they can relate the most with.

I don't expect others to fully appreciate experiences they may have never encountered, but I also try to find common ground as much as possible.

I look to different groups for solidarity depending on the issues that I might face, rather than expecting everyone to be equally concerned about everything that affects me.

There will be issues that interest me that may not be of interest to many white women. And vice versa. I think that's ok. People have limited energy and prioritise their preferences. I seek out alliances and support from different women for different issues.

No one can exclude me from feminism or activism around women's rights because I think that's a choice only I am able to make.

Rolling my eyes at IfNot's post. That's supposed to help, is it?

@PrincessNutella

Arabella--I understand that sentiment completely. There's no particular reason why this book that is written entirely about US politics should be sold to the UK public as if it is universal (except in the occasional anecdotal sense I gave above). I agree with you.

If she is describing Pragna Patel as a 'white feminist' then I think UK feminists of all races should be allowed an opinion on that.

It just means that feminism is for all women and girls. And that people on here carping about how feminists are always being expected to solve everything is irrelevant in this context.

No one is "carping". Feminism is for all women and girls. The focus feminists are expected to put on their own behaviour within their own movement, pipe down, take a back seat etc is not matched in any other activist movement I can think of.

As I thought, you have no useful, practical suggestions for what white women can do for the best.

I will pick up the book if I get the chance - there are valid discussions to be had about white feminism but I can't imagine many on this forum would have welcomed a criticism of white feminism. Sort of like going to a vegan fest with your new recipe book on all things bacon.

@VladmirsPoutine

I will pick up the book if I get the chance - there are valid discussions to be had about white feminism but I can't imagine many on this forum would have welcomed a criticism of white feminism. Sort of like going to a vegan fest with your new recipe book on all things bacon.

I should think that if you post your review and various quotations and ideas that jump off the page to you, there were be an interested readership.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It just means that feminism is for all women and girls. And that people on here carping about how feminists are always being expected to solve everything is irrelevant in this context.

No one is "carping". Feminism is for all women and girls. The focus feminists are expected to put on their own behaviour within their own movement, pipe down, take a back seat etc is not matched in any other activist movement I can think of.

As I thought, you have no useful, practical suggestions for what white women can do for the best.

Spot on, except that piping down and taking a seat is no good either. The criticism then becomes that we fail to speak up - 'silence is violence'

Practical suggestions please.

Yes, I'd be up for honest discussions based on your review, Vladimir.

I've not been on this thread and so don't know which posts you're referring to IfNot but I also can't see any deletions and I'm quite shocked that the kind of comments you've described have been left to stand. When did you report them?

Perhaps IfNot is having a little joke about the use of the three letter acronym WOC.

I'd comment, but I'm busy on another thread debating the origins of the word 'cock.'

I like the sound of Zakaria's other books. Might start with The Upstairs Wife.

@Freespeecher

IfNot 'I will go somewhere where people are not enjoying saying the word "wog" just a little too much'.

That's quite an accusation and one that I really don't think is justified going by the previous posts in this thread.

If she is describing Pragna Patel as a 'white feminist' then I think UK feminists of all races should be allowed an opinion on that.

Yes, I am a bit perplexed that we are apparently not allowed to criticise a book written by a US author because we don't know enough about US politics (fair enough) but she is allowed to smear and denigrate UK women despite, it seems, knowing very little about the UK.

FFS, quoted the wrong post. I was responding to LangClegsinSpace and Princess Nutella.

@Jaysmith71

I'd comment, but I'm busy on another thread debating the origins of the word 'cock.'

Now that sounds more up my avenue.

The word IfNot mentioned was used repeatedly by JaySmith upthread. I can see why If thought it sounded gleeful.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

but you do understand that black women expecting to be included in feminism is not that...don't you??

Yes of course I want all women to be included in feminism and I recognise that they may feel alienated. I know there is structural racism in the U.K. The problem I have with these kind of comments is that no one can ever seem to articulate how positive change can practically be achieved, or what we need to do.

Identity politics can only go so far. And no it isn't for feminism to resolve every oppression in the world. And yes, both men as a class and white people as a class have privilege, but it's deeply crass to call a male sexual abuse victim living under a bypass "privileged" simply because he is white and male. As a feminist I try to avoid talking about privilege at an individual level because it then becomes completely relative and worse than useless.

I think it's not only useless, but a toxic idea.

We can talk about individuals having an advantage, though that advantage will be irrelevant and useless in some situations.

We can talk about a class or group being subject to a prejudice, or having a disparity, but it will not apply to all individuals in the group and the causes in many cases are indirect.

That language requires us to focus on the actual material facts and their origins, and how they are being instantiated in a particular place and time. The hierarchy of privileged obscures those things and often results in very sloppy analysis of what constitutes a meaningful group or disparity, and makes impossible real understanding of causation and therefor solutions.

Ladies. Of course UK feminists are allowed to have an opinion on this book and indeed any book in the whole wide world! I am merely saying that if an American author writes a book about American politics, you are not OBLIGED to care about it. If she shoots her mouth off about a dearly beloved British figure such as Priti Patel in an ignorant fashion please feel to rise to Ms. Patel's defense (haha). Or not. As you choose. But only If it is worth your time. I don't know why this book deserves to be on Radio 4. Surely Jilly Cooper could be prevailed upon to write something about a vicar meeting a sensitive lady with an Aga and a past and they could put that on instead. It sounds as if it would be a lot better than this steaming pile.

We can talk about a class or group being subject to a prejudice, or having a disparity, but it will not apply to all individuals in the group and the causes in many cases are indirect.

Yes that's what I meant when I said it's only useful at the class level, with limitations.

I think she went entirely down the wrong route with Priti Patel. Rather than trying to recategorise Patel as a particular kind of White Feminist, she should have gone after the noun Feminist. I don't believe that Patel is known for any commitment to feminist thought, so no-one would have had much of an issue with that. It's quite normal for people to draw conclusions about people's philosophical affiliations from their actions, after all. Look at all the Labour politicians who are labelled "Red Tories"!

However, it's a little bit harder to both sell the idea that a particular, very recognisable, public figure is now white for having opinions you disagree with, and also your new book at the same time. The first compromises the efficacy of the second. I do sympathise with her eagerness to distance herself from Patel's policies, but she definitely cast doubt on the value-for-money of her own book.

Is there some Priti/Pragna Patel confusion here or does she talk about both?