Erasure of 'the Ladies'

[BaronMunchausen]

I saw this sign in a pub at the weekend. The Ladies replaced by "gender neutral", Gents untouched. Anyone can go into what used to be the Ladies'. How common is this now?

Gender specific toilets are available on every floor. Please ask a member of staff

If I read the small print correctly.

And, What?

What happens if some of the bar staff have the same sensibilities as those in the recent incidents in Doctors and whatever the other one in Scotland was?

How is this not a breach even of Yogyakarta 6f never mind every other consideration?

And just what is 'gender specific' and how does it differ from 'gender neutral'?

Which pub is this? Name and shame.

So women who want single sex toilets have to ask staff. The mens and gender neutral are signposted.

I wonder if the facilities for women are reduced and less than those provided for men. It seems they are vulnerable to legal challenge on the basis of sex discrimination

Can you confirm that there are no ladies toilets on any other floor? If it's just one toilet being neutral while there are other available ones on other floors then what is the issue?

An absolute mess. Are there facilities for women or are there not? Because that sign doesn't say which.

This could be anywhere from third spaces, to where the women's are turned into a free-for-all while the men's stays as is.

Do you know if there is a ladies and gender neutral (mixed sex) toilets on another floor baron

If the ladies is on a different floor, then this is actually a great thing. They clearly haven't just shuffled the disabled space into a gender neutral space, either, as it is up the stairs.

I'm really hoping Ladies and Disabled is downstairs, fingers crossed.

single sex toilets have to ask staff.

It would be interesting to know if the small print gender specific is that independent/chain's way to signpost single sex.

What's the betting that the 'gender specific' toilet is actually a single cubicle, maybe even the staff toilets, hidden away and it isn't as clean or well-stocked with loo roll as the 'main' customer toilets.

Imagine how much of your time as a bartender you would spend answering or escorting half of the bar to the 'gender specific' toilets. Would you spend any time serving drinks? Which is what actually makes the bar money.

I suppose the female customers are meant to be grateful that there is at least an option for them to go and it isn't a return to the urinary leesh of Victorian times.

Most women will just use the gender neutral loos I imagine, because they will risk assess that most likely they will be fine from a safety perspective and they will take the view that the discomfort felt in using them is outweighed by the inconvenience/embarrassment of having to ask for access to a gender specific toilet (which might not be single sex in any event, though not all women will know that), especially when coupled with the possibility of being worried that you may be viewed as transphobic for being open about wanting single sex facilities.

The drive amongst many women not to be an inconvenience/cause trouble is very strong, as is (often) the concern about what other people think of you.

The "gender specific" offering will therefore be little used and in time it will be argued that it can be discontinued on the basis that women don't actually want single sex facilities because they are not using them when offered.

Gents &
Mixed
Sex
Toilets

A more accurate description of the facilities.

maybe even the staff toilets

It's been a while since I worked in a similar setting but shouldn't staff facilities be restricted to staff in any setting where there is food etc. (it's been a long time so I don't know what current regulations or employment standards are).

is there another sign elsewhere to the Ladies toilets? If not I'd like know the name of this establishment

WT actual F. Why am I still surprised….what pub is this??

I'm not the most observant of people (I never noticed the small print!), but I did not see any other toilets. Or signs: this one is very prominent as you come in. The Gents and the "gender neutral" were beside each other upstairs, everyone seemed to go upstairs (small print says 'gender'-specific available in request) and the "neutral" one was essentially what used to be the Ladies.

Can't imagine "Ladies and gender neutral" as the two options!

The establishment in question is the Woodworkers in Belfast.

See that pisses me right fucking off

If there is gent's and gender neutral but no equivalent women's facilities they are discriminating on the grounds of sex

Women need to start taking (even more) legal action

For fuck's sake

For fucks fucking sake - again!!

@PronounssheRa

If there is gent's and gender neutral but no equivalent women's facilities they are discriminating on the grounds of sex

Women need to start taking (even more) legal action

Exactly Illegal

Rebadging our loos ! signposting us out of existence !

Can places stop doing this ! listening to an 'activist' or 'expert' and suspending all common sense and judgement....leading to situations that are ridiculous, or illegal, or both like this one.

Was in a pub the other week where the unisex loos were three cubicles next to each other. But at least one of them clearly used to be a urinal and had bifold doors with a huge gap at the bottom. It was really weird and unpleasant. There was a guy there who was dubious about them too. Not nice at all.

@anaily

Can you confirm that there are no ladies toilets on any other floor? If it's just one toilet being neutral while there are other available ones on other floors then what is the issue?

Discrimination on the grounds of sex for starters.

By law and building regulations, venues have to provide a precisely calculated number of female toilets and male toilets that guarantee at least equal numbers (but should actually provide more toilets to female guests due to their specific biological needs and also due to the fact that women typically have caring responsibilities more often than men).

Let's say in this case six toilets each.

By making the six female-only toilets mixed-sex, they are now discriminating against their female guests by providing them with only six toilets while male guests have 12 to choose from.

That's before we even get to such a setup excluding many women who cannot use mixed-sex facilities.

Wow that is a total disgrace.

I would ask for the sign to be removed immediately.

I had a situation yesterday using the loo, and I was sick (gallbladder issues) and loudly sick and when I came out a guy was stood outside my cubicle texting. He was quite clearly a man, and quite clearly not using the loo just occupying the space to text. The gender neutral loo was next door. And mens were opposite.

What are other people doing to deal with this in real life?
It was extremely uncomfortable for me, and wtf is he doing just stood there. It would mean my Muslim friends would not even be able to use the loo given the modesty around sharing space with men. How have we got this?

"Discrimination on the grounds of sex for starters.

By law and building regulations, venues have to provide a precisely calculated number of female toilets and male toilets that guarantee at least equal numbers (but should actually provide more toilets to female guests due to their specific biological needs and also due to the fact that women typically have caring responsibilities more often than men).

Let's say in this case six toilets each.

By making the six female-only toilets mixed-sex, they are now discriminating against their female guests by providing them with only six toilets while male guests have 12 to choose from.

That's before we even get to such a setup excluding many women who cannot use mixed-sex facilities.''

It's unclear if it's all ladies toilets or just one. If it's just one then the gents on that floor should also be made neutral, if it's all like you mentioned then it's discrimination.