Guardian article: “ Judith Butler: ‘We need to rethink the category of woman“

[SuperSleepyBaby]

See this article in the Guardian:

www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/sep/07/judith-butler-interview-gender

One of the questions asked was “ It seems that some within feminist movements are becoming sympathetic to these far-right campaigns. This year’s furore around Wi Spa in Los Angeles saw an online outrage by transphobes followed by bloody protests organised by the Proud Boys. Can we expect this alliance to continue?”.....

@Helen8220 are there many young children wandering into spas to use the services by themselves around your way? Or are they taken in there by their parents who will have made the choice for themselves and their child/ren to use that space?

Should fathers not take their boys swimming and use male changing rooms at all then for example?

Girls can see foo foos cos they have one, boys can see wee wees, cos they have one

Mixing them up, that's a no no, unless in a mixed area aaaaaaand they wear cossies!

When they are all grown up, they can choose to consent to seeing a foo foo or a wee wee....with other consenting adults, aaand in an appropriate plaaace....anytime ! Hurray!

I believe Helen's argument is that there should be no adult nudity at all in front of children, presumably in any setting including within the family.

I've certainly met people who feel that way, we do seem to have been heading more and more in that direction, with even many adults not being comfortable with things like single-sex changing room nudity and asking for individual showers and changing areas.

But it hasn't been normative for our society in the past and I'm not convinced it's particularly a great direction to move in.

The fact is that there is no way to prevent every adult pervert from ever looking at a child sexually, for example at the beach which is just a normal place for people to enjoy. But when you have a male in a female changing area, you already have a good chance that it is someone doing something transgressive on purpose.

I’m not sure that I would go so far as to say there should be no adult nudity within the family - I have no idea if there’s any evidence to suggest that nudity within a family is good or bad for children, and in any event, it would be impossible to police.

I suppose I’m partly wondering, if we had unisex changing spaces, would that give rise to any greater safeguarding risks in relation to children than already exist (except insofar as it would mean girls being exposed to the same risks that boys are already exposed to)? I know there are entirely separate arguments about how women and teenage girls might feel about unisex facilities.

Broz seems unreasonably cross about something or other.

From the Joan Smith Twitter thread

Haha. Guardian finally gets something right.

@Fitt

Broz seems unreasonably cross about something or other.

The only posts that come up with the terms Broz alleges are in this thread and of the 4, 3 are citing Broz's claim:

www.mumsnet.com/SearchArch?mustmatch=destroy+fags&dontmatch=&nickname=&src_displ_option=s_m_d_m&fromDate=07%2F09%2F21&toDate=08%2F09%2F21&topicmode=All

@Helen8220

I’m not sure that I would go so far as to say there should be no adult nudity within the family - I have no idea if there’s any evidence to suggest that nudity within a family is good or bad for children, and in any event, it would be impossible to police.

I suppose I’m partly wondering, if we had unisex changing spaces, would that give rise to any greater safeguarding risks in relation to children than already exist (except insofar as it would mean girls being exposed to the same risks that boys are already exposed to)? I know there are entirely separate arguments about how women and teenage girls might feel about unisex facilities.

I think it comes down to what's culturally normative. Which can vary to an extent but every one of us operates within the culture we live in.

Children who live in a culture where people in general wear very little clothing, or mixed sex nudity in certain settings is normal, aren't going to be any more likely to be traumatized than kids at the beach.

But if you are a girl in a women's changing room with a man getting his kicks from being there, it's going to feel like a violation, much as it would for older women.

God she sounds like a boring arse. Too close to the abstract to take account of reality.

@Helen8220

I’m not sure that I would go so far as to say there should be no adult nudity within the family - I have no idea if there’s any evidence to suggest that nudity within a family is good or bad for children, and in any event, it would be impossible to police.

I suppose I’m partly wondering, if we had unisex changing spaces, would that give rise to any greater safeguarding risks in relation to children than already exist (except insofar as it would mean girls being exposed to the same risks that boys are already exposed to)? I know there are entirely separate arguments about how women and teenage girls might feel about unisex facilities.

There exist both single sex and mixed sex spaces where nudity is allowed/mandated and which are family friendly. If a mother wants to take her daughter into the women's section of a nude spa where there will be other women present, that is entirely her choice as a parent. If a family visit a nudist beach together where there will be other families present, that is also their choice as a family.

Someone might not feel comfortable in a mixed sex nude environment and so would choose to use a single sex one. They have the right to expect that the place is indeed single sex as advertised.