Really stupid question about the term 'cis'

[Spottybluepyjamas]

I've recently become very vocal about the sex and gender debate amongst some of my friends and family and can normally hold my own when someone is telling me that 'trans women are women' and that it doesn't hurt anyone else for someone to be able to switch sex, so why does it concern me.

However, I can't articulate why I disagree with the word 'cis'. In my mind I shouldn't have to give up the right to use the plain and simple word 'woman' without a prefix just to appease men (men shouldn't be front and centre in feminism), but I think there's more to it than that, something more insidious but I can't put it into words. Can anyone help me please?

There are tons of gender non conforming trans women.

I think the word you're looking for here is 'men'.

I'm happy for people who collect labels to refer to themselves as cis, if they want to. It's a free country.

I'm not willing to be labelled that way myself simply because, as PPs have said, the term implies a belief in and acceptance of outdated and damaging gender norms. I've struggled against those for half a century now and I've no intention of letting anyone force me into giving such nonsense credence.

Am I the opposite of trans ?

I don't know

How would I know which I am ?

How can you call me cis if it's my identity and I don't know what it is?

And that is what any normal person will hear, too.

No, if you think the average person thinks of themselves as "cis" you are woefully out of touch with what most people think about these issues. They don't, and they certainly don't intend to give themselves pointless labels.

If it just meant "not trans", then "trans women" would be biologically female FTM trans people. So no.

Good points just

I wasnt clear though, i wasn’t denying that men back in the 70’s said stuff like that

I just don’t think i have ever ever heard someone saying ‘im not cis im normal’ possibly because, as youve said, cis has no meaning in itself

I thought used to be shorthand for transitioning/transed

Just to address this: this reply is not factually correct at all. There are tons of gender non conforming trans women. That you don't know this just tells everyone that you don't know much about the topic

On the contrary, your post implies that you aren't familiar with the concept of gender.

Gender = societal expectations of how somebody will present, behave and feel because of their sex.

Gender identity = categorising one's identity in terms of those gender expectations.

To view yourself as trans/gender fluid/non-binary/cis, you must view people through the lens of gender, in the same way that some Christians believe that everyone is either saved or not saved.

Surely you can understand that in the same way that some people don't have a religious perspective, some people don't understand identity in terms of gender? In particular people who feel they have been adversely affected by gender/religious beliefs might have strong negative feelings about being forced to assume a gender or religious identity.

Why is this difficult to understand?

Is there any simple argument because we will not win this based on the complications on this thread. The public will not be able to follow this.

Cis implies identification with sexist stereotypes.

That really shouldn't be difficult to understand.

The public are generally able to recognise that other stereotypes are offensive.

I have no objections to whatever anyone wants to call themselves, I'll use whatever pronouns someone wishes.

Pronouns are completely unrelated to biological sex and I firmly believe we have biological sex protections for a reason, women's space must be maintained.

Just as I am happy to address another person as they wish, I should be offered the same choice. I'm a woman, no need for future clarification.

"Cis" means "not trans". It's hard to understand why people get so excited about it, but when I hear people saying "I'm not cis! I'm normal!" my memories go back to the grumpy old men in pubs in the 70s and 80s crying out "I'm not straight! I'm normal!"

And that is what any normal person will hear, too.

This is very silly. In the first paragraph people excited about cis and old men in pubs using normal - clearly bad.

Second sentence chiller using normal - a completely neutral word.

Get your BS sorted out!

Pronouns are unrelated to sex?

Well only for a few people very recently.

Should babies be referred to as them/ they? Just thought and not seen it covered yet.

Pronouns are unrelated to sex?

Well only for a few people very recently.

For some of the most advanced genderologists, they're also unrelated to gender.

You can be a "he/him lesbian".

Hardly anyone knows what cis means or has even heard of the concept- not surprisingly, as it's extremely esoteric and theoretical.

Just heard two very educated colleagues n my hospital department having an extremely T*RFY discussion, but neither of them knew any of the very obscure vocab of this alleged debate. They just know that the idea that sex is self identified rather than objectively present is a bit bonkers.

For me, it's the sheer audacity of a group so adamant that "misgendering" is an act of aggression and that "identity" is the be all and end all yet they insist on referring to me in terms that I most definitely do not identify with because it comes from a set of values I do not ascribe to.
Yes, that's put into words how I feel, thanks.

@Lessthanaballpark

For me, it's the sheer audacity of a group so adamant that "misgendering" is an act of aggression and that "identity" is the be all and end all yet they insist on referring to me in terms that I most definitely do not identify with because it comes from a set of values I do not ascribe to. Yes, that's put into words how I feel, thanks.

Agreed. It seems to go -

'I demand to be referred to as he/him. I will indicate this in my email address and will get very pissy if someone forgets. It's literal violence you know?!'

'I would prefer not to be called cis. It's not part of my identity'.

'Too bad, that's what you're getting called. Transphobe! Bigot!'.

Yes, double standards!

For me, it's the sheer audacity of a group so adamant that "misgendering" is an act of aggression and that "identity" is the be all and end all yet they insist on referring to me in terms that I most definitely do not identify with because it comes from a set of values I do not ascribe to.

8th rule of misogyny
Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

I think this is where many people's natural tolerance starts to run out.

If it's a case of sincerely held values applied equally to everyone in terms of 'no one else can decide someone else's identity and choice of language and it should be unconditionally accepted' and 'be kind' and 'feelings of privacy and dignity and safety should be cared about' and 'inclusion and diversity and intersectionality matters and should always be respected' then no one would have much reason to mind.

But these are never reciprocal, equal values; these noble sounding phrases are just a veneer over sorting out who matters, who doesn't, who gets things that others aren't allowed, and who gets to control and direct others. And the 'others' who don't get and get treated with open disrespect and orders are almost always female.

In terms of basic fairness and a happy society there's no way of that ending in sunshine and rainbows really. Women won't wheesht.

Normal isn't a neutral word IMO and generally.

I have a thing from birth that was called an abnormality back then.

If I describe as X parts are abnormal people irl flinch.

That aside.

I've never heard men in pubs saying I'm not straight I'm normal. I started going to pubs in the 80s and still continue to this day and have always had a variety of friends including old geezers

Anyone who thinks that's what bog standard old geezers in the pub chat about, that's not right at all.

Slag off xyz group sure, less often these days. But not so much that sort of thing.

Younger men these days and in fact women as well so seem to be quite sensitive about this stuff which is a result of oppression Olympics which was pushed by (bastardised by) erm well certain groups...

The whole thing is a power thing. And totally disconnected from real life.

Time and time again I have asked.
How does this work in real life?
In a job for eg where you have meetings with people you don't know and have never met all the time?
Circulate pronoun list before each call?
Everyone has to check intranet?
What about those on the call where pronouns are not a thing? Send an email/direct them to reading material before any calls?
What if someone cocks up? Who should mention it if anyone?
What about those whose pronouns are changeable?
Etc etc.

Say something happens. You have to tell say tfl staff about it. You can't assume gender. Should all reports on anything be they/ them / a person?

You see 2 schoolgirls getting hassled by a bloke. They are pretty awful and you call 111 or whatever the number is. However the dynamic needs to be ignored because you haven't asked their gender. So that loses something.

News. Why are the words woman etc still used to mean sex even by outlets that are 100% behind gender > sex??? Totally hypocritical. The recent headlines should read. 50% of people in Afghanistan have been warned to stay inside by the taleban. Right? So why aren't they fucking doing it the utter cowardly hypocrites.

And why are those who have concerns about gender > sex. Always either cis (irrespective of what they prefer or even if they are under the stonewall umbrella) or sorry about this truscum if they are indisputably trans.

Sorry for rant.

This lack of common sense logic etc etc just really gets up my nose.