Really stupid question about the term 'cis'

[Spottybluepyjamas]

I've recently become very vocal about the sex and gender debate amongst some of my friends and family and can normally hold my own when someone is telling me that 'trans women are women' and that it doesn't hurt anyone else for someone to be able to switch sex, so why does it concern me.

However, I can't articulate why I disagree with the word 'cis'. In my mind I shouldn't have to give up the right to use the plain and simple word 'woman' without a prefix just to appease men (men shouldn't be front and centre in feminism), but I think there's more to it than that, something more insidious but I can't put it into words. Can anyone help me please?

The argument that women who are horrified by male sex offenders in women's prison aren't actually at all. But just saying it to hate on trans people.

See also: Those Polish officers all shot themselves in the head just to make Stalin look bad.

This thread is way too complicated for me. I do not accept the word 'cis' I am a woman and don't see why other people can label me cis instead of the word woman.

Is there any simple argument because we will not win this based on the complications on this thread. The public will not be able to follow this.

The simple answer is that it's all bollocks.

To draw on an analogy:

In development studies, a North/South dichotomy is used. It is noted that there are poor underdeveloped countries in the northern hemisphere such as Haiti and Cuba, and wealthy developed ones in the south such as Australia and New Zealand. But at no stage has anyone ever suggested moving the equator to accomodate this.

'cis' starts with a nonsensical premise, that men who say they are women literally are women just like a certain church says the bread and wine actually becomes the blood and body of their two thousands years old saviour. The use of a faux jargony word like trans-substantiation or cis cannot alter material reality. It can be a personal belief, but you cannot compel others to accept it.

Barheim says:
Do you rehearse this shite in your meetings? I've heard this exact ridiculous jump-to-shite argument targeted FIVE TIMES to me by the exact same bad-faith people in the past 2 weeks

Well Barheim, if five people tell you it is not a good idea to put male sex offenders in women's prisons, maybe you should start to listen to why they are saying this?
But you won't because it doesn't fit your agenda to make everything single gender and therefore mixed sex.

Simple argument

Cis woman means woman without a penis
This means you must think A person with a penis can be a woman
Really?

@midgemagneto

Simple argument

Cis woman means woman without a penis
This means you must think A person with a penis can be a woman
Really?

While I like that it doesn't work for trans women who have had their penis removed.

Born with a penis might be better

I would hate for a soldier who lost his stuff in war to be considered no longer a msn but a women

Do you rehearse this shite in your meetings? I've heard this exact ridiculous jump-to-shite argument targeted FIVE TIMES to me by the exact same bad-faith people in the past 2 weeks

So therefore you should have a very well evidenced and thought out answer. If you are keen to push the usual prejudiced and snide remarks we have come to expect and that shows readers that posters who do this have nothing to offer, crack on.

I am hoping that we see that excellent well thought out answer that doesn’t revolve around emotional manipulation, belief in and references to pseudoscience and/or complete ignorance of the needs of other females (even if the poster doesn’t feel have those needs). I shall wait.

This thread is way too complicated for me. I do not accept the word 'cis' I am a woman and don't see why other people can label me cis instead of the word woman.

MTF trans people are male. A woman is an adult human female, a girl is a female child. Males don't meet the criteria. There is no such thing as a "cis woman". That's as simple as it gets.

@midgemagneto

Simple argument

Cis woman means woman without a penis
This means you must think A person with a penis can be a woman
Really?

Important to remember that well known TW presenter India Willoughby identifies themselves as 'cis'.

It has absolutely no real, fixed meaning outside of being a political idea.

@Shadedog

Cis means “on the same side of”. The TRA/MRA argument is that cis simply means “not trans”. It’s a handy way of saying a person is not trans so wtf is your problem it doesn’t hurt anyone it costs you nothing etc. But cis doesn’t mean “not trans” it means on the same side of. If you were travelling from Paris to Rome you wouldn’t say you were doing a “cis-Atlantic” journey meaning it’s not transatlantic. For there to be any sense to it it needs to mean that your “gender identity” is on the same side as your sex. It’s dependent on you actually having a gender identity and that identity being nailed to femininity. That’s not the same as being “not trans” at all. It’s conforming without deviation to every stereotype associated with women and then making a claim that all of this dress, behaviour, attitude, skills and flaws etc are innate.

Just to address this: this reply is not factually correct at all. There are tons of gender non conforming trans women. That you don't know this just tells everyone that you don't know much about the topic.

"Cis" means "not trans". It's hard to understand why people get so excited about it, but when I hear people saying "I'm not cis! I'm normal!" my memories go back to the grumpy old men in pubs in the 70s and 80s crying out "I'm not straight! I'm normal!"

And that is what any normal person will hear, too.

Have you ever considered that it is not normal to have gender identity

If cis just means not trans then in case of a woman and transwoman we have excellent words for that: woman and transwoman. Or maybe even female and male. Not need for cis to be used as a qualification because transwomen and woman are not the same. Transmen and woman are with regard to biological sex but even there cis is not needed as transmen and woman are very different words.

It is not the same as straight and gay, because straight and gay are adjectives whilst transwoman is a noun. If you want to use the adjective transgender then you would say "transgender man" or "transgender male" to indicate a transwoman but I think transwomen don't appreciate being referred to by their sex class.

"Cis" means "not trans". It's hard to understand why people get so excited about it, but when I hear people saying "I'm not cis! I'm normal!" my memories go back to the grumpy old men in pubs in the 70s and 80s crying out "I'm not straight! I'm normal!"

And Trans means not Cis, it seems. The words are defined in terms of each other. So what is Trans?

It really reminds me of the difference between hip and square. Cis simply means "not one of us, and we're a self defining group which also has the right to define others not in the group, and there is no appeal, and no duty of accountability on our part. So suck it up".

That's what it looks like to me. And about as far away from inclusive as you can possibly get. It's about being cool, glamorous, special, part of the in-group, different from the unwashed. It's a self selecting aristocracy, which is why, perhaps, it appeals so much to those in the media and to schoolkids who are afraid of not being popular.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with those people who genuinely suffer from body dysphoria.

Am I right, or am I being too cynical?

but when I hear people saying "I'm not cis! I'm normal!" my memories go back to the grumpy old men in pubs in the 70s and 80s crying out "I'm not straight! I'm normal!"

When did you hear that then?

I’ve never heard that from anyone

Yeah, absolutely no one is making that argument. You're arguing with yourself, there chiller

@chiller

"Cis" means "not trans". It's hard to understand why people get so excited about it, but when I hear people saying "I'm not cis! I'm normal!" my memories go back to the grumpy old men in pubs in the 70s and 80s crying out "I'm not straight! I'm normal!"

If that's what you think that is the reason many people reject the concept of Women as a multi-sex group that subdivides into Cis and Trans I suspect you have not read the thread, or if you have you have only seen what you expect to see not what people are saying.

Very briefly:

To accept there are "cis" and "trans" women who are different subtypes of women means redefining Woman as a multi-sex group

The laws, rights, spaces, opportunities and protections that were put in place for and by female people to mitigate the social and physical disadvantages of having a female body are currently defined as Women's because when they were set up Woman was a single sex female group.

I believe that the female half of the species still needs those things, and a name to anslyse, politicise and organise under, for reasons that are nothing to do with gender identity.

Therefore I cannot accept the redefinition if Woman as a multi-sex group unless it is done alongside a recognition and renaming of female people and a transfer of all existing women-only spaces, rights, opportunities and protections to the new name so they remain female only.

None of this precludes setting up in parallel brand new women-only spaces, rights, opportunities and protections that are designed from the ground up for what trans- and cis- women need and want.

So, nothing to do with who is "normal", whatever that even means. Just the simple recognition that sex and gender are different and we can't just redefine the name of a sex to mean a gender unless we change all the structures underneath it as well.

Sort that out and I have no issue with Woman becoming a gender label for those who need it.

I, of course, still would not use the label cis, but I wouldn't need to because I wouldn't be a woman at all, just a female continuing to be supported by appropriate single sex spaces, rights, opportunities and protections

What I don't understand is that many transwomen who are attracted to women call themselves lesbians. But lesbian means homosexual ie same sex attracted. So are these transwomen saying that they've actually changed sex and are no longer male? Even with a penis and beard?

It really does seem to be a case of the emperor's new clothes.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

but when I hear people saying "I'm not cis! I'm normal!" my memories go back to the grumpy old men in pubs in the 70s and 80s crying out "I'm not straight! I'm normal!"

When did you hear that then?

I’ve never heard that from anyone

I'm old enough to remember those old men. And they had a point. Why use the term "straight" for heterosexuals? It suggests rigid, unimaginative, dreary, boring. Gay, though, means inspired, full of life, imaginative - you can see where I'm going with this. At that time, I saw "straight" as a slur, and I still do. I would never use the term "straight" for myself. But that's my choice.

"Cis" is used as a slur - particularly in the form "cishet" - but that's not the main objection. The term "straight" is understandable in terms other than "not gay". It has a meaning in itself. The term "cis" isn't. It has no meaning in itself.

"Cis" means "not trans". It's hard to understand why people get so excited about it, but when I hear people saying "I'm not cis! I'm normal!" my memories go back to the grumpy old men in pubs in the 70s and 80s crying out "I'm not straight! I'm normal!"

Total straw man, avoiding engaging with any of the in depth reasoning people are giving here while equating not conforming to your personal political beliefs with being old, stupid and prejudiced.

And that is what any normal person will hear, too.

Only people who share your political beliefs are 'normal'?

Ageist, multiply ableist on multiple fronts, and highly intolerant of other people's beliefs. I'm not quite sure you're talking from the position of confirmed superior virtue that you are suggesting here.

And that is what any normal person will hear, too.

Gaslighting 101.

At that time, I saw "straight" as a slur, and I still do. I would never use the term "straight" for myself. But that's my choice.

But the point is that it's only the word you're objecting to. Not the concept or definition. Presumably you'd be fine with "heterosexual"? You understand and accept that you're attracted to the opposite sex, and you don't dispute that.

With "cis" it's not that we want a different word for the definition "us people whose gender identity doesn't match our sex". We don't believe that definition describes us - we do not accept the premise of the concept.

@NecessaryScene

At that time, I saw "straight" as a slur, and I still do. I would never use the term "straight" for myself. But that's my choice.

But the point is that it's only the word you're objecting to. Not the concept or definition. Presumably you'd be fine with "heterosexual"? You understand and accept that you're attracted to the opposite sex, and you don't dispute that.

With "cis" it's not that we want a different word for the definition "us people whose gender identity doesn't match our sex". We don't believe that definition describes us - we do not accept the premise of the concept.

Yes. That is exactly the point. Thank you for putting it more simply!

Well, not exactly the point - I posted too hastily. "Straight" is a term which has an identifiable real-world referent. "Cis" doesn't. I can't know if I'm cis or not, because I can't know what cis actually means, other than people calling themselves trans saying "not one of us".

And I don't know if I'm "one of us" or not because I don't know what "one of us" means.