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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2021 09:44

Other than to observe that accusations are often admissions

BraveBananaBadge · 03/09/2021 09:46

Absolutely disgraceful, plodalong. How these people have the gall to call themselves journalists is appalling. I really worry for the standard of news all round in future once this generation are promoted to the helm. Facts really don't matter to these people and he's publicly throwing a strop and refusing to do his job properly because he just feels he's in the right. I discussed this on another thread recently - ten years ago, this guy's feet wouldn't have touched the ground trying to get away with that; now editors seem to laud these type of writers while being terrified of accusations of transphobia.

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 03/09/2021 09:57

I've seen that argument. That this person is going to be used by GC feminists to attack trans people and that's really bad.

Nope. It's MALES. Male sexed maley males who think a declaration gives them unfettered access to us.

Not even a shred of ok maybe they have a point, self ID has opened up a loophole for sex offenders. They really don't care if women and girls are hurt by this, as long as they get what they want. We're acceptable collateral damage for the reward of validation.

OvaHere · 03/09/2021 10:01

If some respects it doesn't matter how they spin it because the Wi Spa is not a one time and done thing. There will be another 'Wi Spa' and another and another...so on and so forth.

It's going to keep happening in places that should be single sex and where women and girls are vulnerable.

They can't put the genie back in the bottle.

MondayYogurt · 03/09/2021 10:06

Screenshots here https://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/comments/pgt4a1/personwhoowrotewiispatransphobicchoaxarticle/

GromblesofGrimbledon · 03/09/2021 10:07

The TRAs have no option but to double down on this.

They accept that women can have penises. If a woman can have a penis then there is no recourse to complain if said "woman" sits next to other women in a nude spa with an erection.

If women can have penises, women can have erections. If you complain you are ostracising and embarrassing them.

InvisibleDragon · 03/09/2021 10:09

This is so frustrating.

If this person did not identify as trans, it would be an open and shut case: a man entering an explicitly women only nude space deliberately is essentially the definition of "intention" to cause offence/arousal. That they were clearly aroused is just extra confirmation.

But because this person claims they are a trans woman, everything is twisted and obfuscated. It becomes offensive to say that they are a man, because it's "transphobic". It becomes a reasonable defence that they had a right to be in that space because they claim a female gender identity, which makes it hard to demonstrate intent. It even allows them to claim discrimination - 'my god, I've been charged with indecent exposure because a transphobic bigot was offended by my existence' - and lobby to be exempted from indecent exposure laws because of their trans status.

I actually think that this is the line the Guardian etc will take.

Yes, there was a naked trans woman in the women's spa. She is allowed to be there because she is a woman. Some Conservative religious people got offended because of their bigotry. This is unacceptable - in the same way that it would be unacceptable for a cis white woman to object to the presence of a black woman in the spa.

There is even evidence that this woman has been similarly persecuted before. This suggests that there is systemic injustice based on white, heteronormative definitions of womanhood, which are being inforced by institutionally corrupt police and cis male legislators. This is literal violenc against trans bodies. Defund the police.

Once you mangle a foundational definition, it becomes possible to argue something superficially plausible and construct edifices of sophistry. It also makes it very hard to argue against, because you are either shut down entirely (TWAW, silence bigot); talking at cross purposes (working with different definitions of the word woman) or left flailing around trying to explain why this particular person behaved inappropriately, how to distinguish that behaviour from the appropriate behaviour for a trans woman in a naked spa, and why the rights of trans women to use women's nude spas (like all other women) should be curtailed because of the actions of one sex offender in one place.

I was rereading this piece by Belstaffie about sexual offending behaviour in men yesterday, which I think is very relevant here:
belstaffieonline.wordpress.com/2020/01/10/trans-identified-males-should-not-be-accessing-womens-single-sex-spaces/amp/

The key point is that certain behaviours by trans women, including deliberately violating women's stated boundaries by entering spaces like toilets, changing rooms (and nude spas!) is highly indicative of predatory sexual behaviour and should be interpreted as such, regardless of any stated gender identity or trans status.

NecessaryScene · 03/09/2021 10:09

Nope. It's MALES. Male sexed maley males who think a declaration gives them unfettered access to us.

No trans people need to exist for our objection to occur.

The objection is to policies that say that any man can do what this man did and women who object are called liars and transphobes.

The more "trans allies" call women liars and transphobes for resisting men, the harder and harder women are going to fight it. It becomes more and more obvious how much their rights are being threatened.

If this is an attack on "trans people" it would only be if "trans people" are insisting on this policy of "any male is permitted". And I don't think it would necessarily be fair to say that this was the uniform view of "trans people". I have no idea whether it is or not - I don't know that it's even the majority.

EsmaCannonball · 03/09/2021 10:11

In my lifetime it's gone:-

Women who complain about sex offences are slags and liars
Women who complain about sex offences are man-haters and liars
Women who complain about sex offences are nutcases and liars
Women who complain about sex offences are grifters and liars
Women who complain about sex offences are bigots and liars

The new development is most worrying because it's the one that gets you vilified across the internet, cancelled and potentially sued or prosecuted for a hate-crime.

Certain media outlets, commentators (well, they're not actual fucking journalists, are they?) and academics will never change their minds about this. We were bigots for assuming the penis belonged to a man, now we're bigots for mentioning 'trans' in the same sentence as sexual predators.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2021 10:11

Exactly, CubanaAngel didn't complain about a "trans woman" in the spa. She complained about a naked man.

NecessaryScene · 03/09/2021 10:19

Exactly, CubanaAngel didn't complain about a "trans woman" in the spa. She complained about a naked man.

Which was itself attacked as being "transphobic" because clearly if there was a "man" there then it must have been a "transwoman", so objecting to a "man" in a woman's space is prima facie evidence of transphobia.

InvisibleDragon · 03/09/2021 10:22

Eresh

But isn't that just further evidence of her bigotry? She called a trans woman a man, which is transphobic and just shows her hatred and desire to offend. Etc. Etc.

InvisibleDragon · 03/09/2021 10:23

Ah, cross posted. What Necessary said.

MondayYogurt · 03/09/2021 10:30

Quick question for any men here, but do men walk around naked with erections in men's changing rooms and spas (other than gay saunas etc). Is that accepted?

Beowulfa · 03/09/2021 10:31

Imagine even ten years ago the thought of otherwise intelligent people tying themselves up into linguistic knots in order to defend a serial pervert. That a bloke with his cock out in the womens changing room could be redefined as not a bloke, and it's not a cock if some magic words were uttered.

It's like what some students might scribble for their end of term play after doing a load of drugs and binge-watching Chris Morris.

ArabellaScott · 03/09/2021 10:32

@GromblesofGrimbledon

The TRAs have no option but to double down on this.

They accept that women can have penises. If a woman can have a penis then there is no recourse to complain if said "woman" sits next to other women in a nude spa with an erection.

If women can have penises, women can have erections. If you complain you are ostracising and embarrassing them.

Yes, they're going to have to own it.
EsmaCannonball · 03/09/2021 10:33

One of the problems here is that news-gathering is expensive, whereas comment is not only free but cheap. Paying a proper reporter is not like bunging someone £150 for a rattled-off think-piece.

This is reminding me of the Jussie Smollett incident. While a thousand think-piece writers had already filed their copy, lowly local news reporters were traipsing all over Chicago, talking to their connections in emergency services, questioning shopkeepers and looking into Smollett's friends. Maybe media organisations should have a rule that they establish what a story is before they start pushing their agenda. The Guardian is a complete and useless shitshow.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 03/09/2021 10:34

do men walk around naked with erections...Is that accepted?

Not a man - but, that is an excellent question, Monday.

Am willing to bet my weekend bottle of red that the answer is "not really"

Helleofabore · 03/09/2021 10:39

@MondayYogurt

Quick question for any men here, but do men walk around naked with erections in men's changing rooms and spas (other than gay saunas etc). Is that accepted?
Is it acceptable in a mixed sex section?

Is it ever acceptable unless it is a sex party? Are we further infantilising these males by saying that they can’t control their arousal just like they have free reign to abuse people that they feel don’t agree sufficiently with them. Such as what happened on the weekend with Manchester pride.

NecessaryScene · 03/09/2021 10:40

Quick question for any men here, but do men walk around naked with erections in men's changing rooms and spas (other than gay saunas etc). Is that accepted?

Never seen it happen. But then we don't get pervy men ogling ladies in there.

merrymouse · 03/09/2021 10:44

@Beowulfa

Imagine even ten years ago the thought of otherwise intelligent people tying themselves up into linguistic knots in order to defend a serial pervert. That a bloke with his cock out in the womens changing room could be redefined as not a bloke, and it's not a cock if some magic words were uttered.

It's like what some students might scribble for their end of term play after doing a load of drugs and binge-watching Chris Morris.

Actually that was what the BBC were doing almost exactly 10 years ago!

(I’m making this point to suggest that deliberate institutional blindness isn’t new, not to directly link this case to the specific case that concerned the BBC in 2011).

yourhairiswinterfire · 03/09/2021 10:44

Someone needs to tell the media and certain activists that continuing to call this ''anti-trans'' when it's actually anti- sex offender is not the best look.

Because they're kinda looking like they're sympathising and caping for the poor ickle sex offender whilst still victim blaming the women and children exposed to him. 🤨

Clymene · 03/09/2021 10:46

Poor Evan really is filled with self-loathing

Clymene · 03/09/2021 10:51

@yourhairiswinterfire

Someone needs to tell the media and certain activists that continuing to call this ''anti-trans'' when it's actually anti- sex offender is not the best look.

Because they're kinda looking like they're sympathising and caping for the poor ickle sex offender whilst still victim blaming the women and children exposed to him. 🤨

Well, as Laurie Penny said, children shouldn't be looking at erect penises when they're waved in their faces anyway.

I wonder if she'd like to say that to the families of the girls Colin Pitchfork killed or that of Sarah Everard?

Both of them exposed themselves repeatedly before escalating their violence against women and girls to rape and murder.

I wonder if Penny thinks it's their fault too?

IvyTwines2 · 03/09/2021 10:51

@EsmaCannonball

One of the problems here is that news-gathering is expensive, whereas comment is not only free but cheap. Paying a proper reporter is not like bunging someone £150 for a rattled-off think-piece.

This is reminding me of the Jussie Smollett incident. While a thousand think-piece writers had already filed their copy, lowly local news reporters were traipsing all over Chicago, talking to their connections in emergency services, questioning shopkeepers and looking into Smollett's friends. Maybe media organisations should have a rule that they establish what a story is before they start pushing their agenda. The Guardian is a complete and useless shitshow.

Yes, there was a good piece a year ago, 'The Truth is Paywalled but the Lies are Free'.
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