Quick reassurance needed please

[BlackAlys]

Return to school today and pupils toilets have changed to unisex toilets.

This surely isn't legal? Furious.

If there are single sex toilets elsewhere then it might be interesting to make a note of how many boys v girls use the unisex facilities. If it's largely only boys, then clearly girls have been discriminated against. You could also argue that their education will suffer if they have to walk to the other side of school to pee as they'll be late back for lessons.

I’d be absolutely livid and sending in the brilliantly written letter above - thanks for providing it.

You could check building regulations and Health and Safety policy, OP.

I understood mixed sex facilities had to include sinks within the cubicle with toilet, for privacy, but I've not found the guidance very clear. I think it was written more with disabled facilities in mind (which are usually mixed sex).

@ArabellaScott

You could check building regulations and Health and Safety policy, OP.

I understood mixed sex facilities had to include sinks within the cubicle with toilet, for privacy, but I've not found the guidance very clear. I think it was written more with disabled facilities in mind (which are usually mixed sex).

I thought the same.

Our Head is captured. Told last term that I had to move with the times.

@titchy

If there are single sex toilets elsewhere then it might be interesting to make a note of how many boys v girls use the unisex facilities. If it's largely only boys, then clearly girls have been discriminated against. You could also argue that their education will suffer if they have to walk to the other side of school to pee as they'll be late back for lessons.

This is an excellent idea (although I'm not sure how it will work in practice).

Also be interesting to compare cleanliness.

Re your head's comments about "move with the times". The times are moving backwards for women and children. Why should you accept this?

Oh, dear. You may want to pass him the recent debacle at Highland Council, Culloden Academy.

He's going to have to convince all the parents and pupils to 'move with the times', too.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/schools-family/3419599/a-convenient-truth-your-views-on-unisex-toilets-in-schools/

www.change.org/p/highland-council-we-say-no-to-unisex-toilets-in-highland-council-schools?redirect=false

Not sure if Schools guidance is the same in Wales as Scotland, if so, this might also be useful:

forwomen.scot/06/08/2020/school-toilets/?fbclid=IwAR11cQbtpRIAxjrYMQKEna9l60SEfTAZTHD3mwhseP1OQTCokDbTm0Fx_E8

The UK government guidance on toilets in schools, from page 5

SPRs Regulation 4 — (1) Subject to paragraph (3), suitable toilet and washing
facilities must be provided for the sole use of pupils.
(2) Separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over must be provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time.

I would argue that if they are cubicles in a line that is not an toilet but a bank of cubicles so not intended for one at a time. Also as the sinks are outside the toilet is not self-contained and not for one at a time.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/410294/Advice_on_standards_for_school_premises.pdf

The ratio of provision might be useful, as the sinks are outside of the cubicles it counts as shared sinks:

Numbers of fittings - The regulations do not set the minimum number of fittings to be provided in relation to the ages and numbers of pupils. Generally the needs of younger pupils are likely to be
greater than those for older ones. So, for example, a provision of one toilet and washbasin for every ten pupils under 5 years old would be adequate, while that ratio could be doubled for pupils aged 5-11 to one toilet and washbasin for every 20 pupils.

For pupils over 11 one toilet per 20 pupils would be sufficient, but there is scope to reduce the number of washbasins where the washing facilities are shared.

Did a newsletter go out to inform parents? As a secondary school I'm sure parents of girls who will be starting their periods might have something to say about this.

This might also be useful from page 12.

www.schooltoilets.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/CubicleCentre-SchoolGuide.pdf

imasoulman if everyone sed the toilets according to their sex this problem would not arise. If men and boys had any respect for women and each other, it wold not arise. It is always women and girls who lose out.

@catzwhiskas

imasoulman if everyone sed the toilets according to their sex this problem would not arise. If men and boys had any respect for women and each other, it wold not arise. It is always women and girls who lose out.

I absolutely agree and have repeatedly said on many discussions here that single sex spaces are vital and need to be protected. You will never hear me arguing otherwise.

However in this day and age if those spaces are going to be protected then unisex spaces need to be created along side single sex.

I don't see how this means that women and girls are missing out.
As I said before I thought this was the solution most level headed people wanted to see.

The head needs to realise in a few weeks he's also going to have to move with the times and get on to the next steps of realising in reality, most kids hate this, there are a fuckton of practical issues like who won't come to school, who is out of lessons for ages trying to get to a single sex loo, who isn't drinking, and how many sexual harassment situations have arisen, and he's opened himself up for a whole lot of problems he hadn't thought of.

This is the trouble with being all trendy and moving with the times and fashions instead of using basic common sense - the goalposts shift very quickly.

I assume you understand the difference between creating unisex spaces and converting existing single-sex spaces to unisex?

@Artichokeleaves

The head needs to realise in a few weeks he's also going to have to move with the times and get on to the next steps of realising in reality, most kids hate this, there are a fuckton of practical issues like who won't come to school, who is out of lessons for ages trying to get to a single sex loo, who isn't drinking, and how many sexual harassment situations have arisen, and he's opened himself up for a whole lot of problems he hadn't thought of.

This is the trouble with being all trendy and moving with the times and fashions instead of using basic common sense - the goalposts shift very quickly.

Agree.

How does this head get to such a position? Does he actually have any common sense or intelligence?? Can he think for himself?? Does he have the capacity for critical thinking or empathy?

I despair.

Exactly the same thing happening at my son's schools.

No consultation with parents. The only comms sent out were a paragraph in a newsletter 3 days before they broke up for the summer.

Apparently they did consult the pupils (who were all wildly excited for it) I pointed out that unless it was an anonymous consultation and everyone was asked, it was worthless.

Same format, cubicles with toilets, communal sinks, open to the corridoor. It is being converted from a single sex (boys and girls) block not in addition to the existing provision, but other single sex provision remains elsewhere.
Almost like there is a centralised plan and funding coming from somewhere.

I challenged it on the basis of part 2:

SPRs Regulation 4 — (1) Subject to paragraph (3), suitable toilet and washing
facilities must be provided for the sole use of pupils.
(2) Separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over must be provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time.

but was told that because there is single sex provision elsewhere this criteria was met.

I said I didn't think that was the spirit of the law, but fair enough and asked the head, if he could reassure me that there would be no further erosion of single sex provision, (that any new mixed sex facilities would be in addition to not in place of single sex toilets) and was told no, that couldn't be promised.

move with the times

Has there been some radical change in behaviour of adolescent males since I was at school?

I’d also be asking if the teachers toilets have also been changed “to move with the times” or do they still have the luxury of single sex loos.

@CurrantTeacake

I’d also be asking if the teachers toilets have also been changed “to move with the times” or do they still have the luxury of single sex loos.

This is an excellent point.

@NecessaryScene

move with the times

Has there been some radical change in behaviour of adolescent males since I was at school?

Judging by the Everyone's Invited site, set up so children could report times they had been subjected to sexual assault at school, the only change has been for the worse.

Nope. Same as it ever was. I have a son at this school, so "I'm alright jack" but I can't get my head around the idea that at the extremes it means that menstruating just turned 11 year old (Year 7) girls are sharing the same space with essentially fully grown 18 year old men.
Of course in reality the 11 year old girl will just walk further to the single sex loos..until those are removed too.

@CurrantTeacake

I’d also be asking if the teachers toilets have also been changed “to move with the times” or do they still have the luxury of single sex loos.

Please don’t be giving him ideas.

However in this day and age if those spaces are going to be protected then unisex spaces need to be created along side single sex.

I don't see how this means that women and girls are missing out.
As I said before I thought this was the solution most level headed people wanted to see.

The solution the school previously had, by the sound of it, was a majority of single-sex toilets with two mixed-sex ones. That sounds like plenty.

However in this day and age if those spaces are going to be protected then unisex spaces need to be created along side single sex

In a school. No. Kids need adults to set the boundaries and keep them safe and to make decisions they won't necessarily like or understand at the time in order to protect them. Kids need protecting from themselves sometimes.

Has there been some radical change in behaviour of adolescent males since I was at school?

Don't know your age, but these days they have phones with cameras.

Does it need spelling out?

Ask to see the Equality Impact Assessment. This is a requirement in Wales.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/assessing-impact-and-equality-duty-guide-listed-public-authorities-wales

@Jaysmith71

Has there been some radical change in behaviour of adolescent males since I was at school?

Don't know your age, but these days they have phones with cameras.

Does it need spelling out?

To be fair I presume Necessary meant had behaviour improved since he was at school, not that no bad behaviour happens.

Back to the OP my DC's school is like this, single enclosed cubicles with sinks outside along the corridor. She doesn't use them when at school, but I get no more than "I just don't" when asked. They were built like this 11 years ago so is not a new development. I imagine that they must somehow got within the law.