Quick reassurance needed please

[BlackAlys]

Return to school today and pupils toilets have changed to unisex toilets.

This surely isn't legal? Furious.

Got = fit

[quote OldCrone]Ask to see the Equality Impact Assessment. This is a requirement in Wales.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/assessing-impact-and-equality-duty-guide-listed-public-authorities-wales[/quote]
It is a requirement.

However it's the Welsh government who not only explained to a MNetter's FOI request that they'd lost a very major equality impact assessment, which definitely existed, and definitely had formed the basis of all planning, but they'd gone and lost all the emails relating to the assessment, all the commissioning information and letters/emails on who had been asked to carry it out, and all the minutes from the meetings where the assessment was planned, fed back on and acted on as the basis of decisions made. Every last trace lost. Apparently. Just like it never existed.

And their response to this was 'oh well'.

Remember the old days where there were ethics, integrity, actual sense of public responsibility and you weren't surrounded by people with their pants on fire?

My local secondary has done this in the main corridor, 2 blocks of toilets facing each other with back to back basins in the middle, totally open and part of the corridor.

tbh it works quite well for the kids who use them at break time, there are literally hundreds of kids and staff walking within a couple of feet, reducing the risk of bullying and problem behaviour as everyone can see every thing and everyone and it’s really busy.

I also think children are just as likely to get physically or verbally abused by their own sex so single sex spaces are not necessarily safer

Btw: yes, the ideal solution is to add mixed sex to single sex provision, but proportionally. The need for mixed sex is not a majority need by any means.

There will also need to be stringent checks on how many girls in particular are now trying to use how many single sex loos, and that policy and things like distance to get to a loo in time for lessons etc, are not pressuring girls into using mixed sex spaces against their will. Bearing in mind that a hell of a lot of the political lobby agenda by adults in favour of this is training female people out of expecting privacy, dignity and safety and just getting them used to living in a world without it.

Who benefits from this I wonder? Not female people of any age.

@Rattysparklebum

My local secondary has done this in the main corridor, 2 blocks of toilets facing each other with back to back basins in the middle, totally open and part of the corridor.

tbh it works quite well for the kids who use them at break time, there are literally hundreds of kids and staff walking within a couple of feet, reducing the risk of bullying and problem behaviour as everyone can see every thing and everyone and it’s really busy.

I also think children are just as likely to get physically or verbally abused by their own sex so single sex spaces are not necessarily safer

Didn't we go through all these claims last time, Rattysparklebum? You had no data on what the children actually think of this, you had no idea how many were self-excluding because they need a single-sex space, you paid zero attention to children from culturally conservative backgrounds who cannot use mixed-sex provisions, you paid zero attention to the biological needs and rights of girls, you paid zero attention to the needs of girls who were victims of abuse and you completely and utterly failed to understand that sexual violence is a predominantly male crime that disproportionately affects women and girls.

But yeah, it's all fine really.

Language is important here as I'm sure the Safe Schools Alliance Factsheet that was linked to would say.
Single sex: cubicles with sanitary bin. Shared sinks. Closed door to corridor.
Unisex: single contained unit with sanitary bin and sink. Opens to a public corridor.
Mixed sex: cubicles with doors (floor to ceiling) shared sinks. Each cubicle needs to have a sanitary bin.
Are all different, these toilets sound like mixed sex. When communicating always use mixed sex.
I feel your rage and would be just as angry as you.

However in this day and age if those spaces are going to be protected then unisex spaces need to be created along side single sex.

The described toilets are not unisex toilets.

Unisex has a specific meaning in regard to sanitary facilities.

Ordinary toilets with a bank of cubicles and shared sinks are multi-entry facilities, that is they are used by more than one person entering at a time, but all persons are of the same sex.

A unisex toilet is a single-entry facility, that is a self-contained room complete with toilet and wash basin, with a lockable door that encloses the wash basin. They can only be used by one person entering at a time, but are for the use of individuals of either sex. Unisex stands here for only one of the sexes in the facility at any one time. Disabled toilets for instance are almost always unisex facilities.

The toilets described by the OP meet neither single-sex nor unisex requirements. This is a multi-entry facility that can be used by members of both sexes at the same time, i.e. the sexes mix while using the facility.

Mixed-sex facilities are not what we campaign for in places where we safeguard minors or where the users are especially vulnerable and safeguarding is an issue, such as in hospital wards or prisons.

In all other settings catering to adults, multi-entry mixed-sex facilities would be appropriate as a third space, as long as sufficient numbers of single-sex toilets are also provided.

CharlieParley
Thank you much better explanation than my attempt.

@FemaleAndLearning

CharlieParley Thank you much better explanation than my attempt.

I hadn't seen yours before I posted mine but once I did, I was thinking oh FGS, that was much more succinct and I had to go on and on again

I am really not reading the guidelines posted previously in the thread the same way that everyone else seems to be.

It talks of suitable toilet facilities and washing facilities, it talks of the need for separate toilet facilities but does not then mention washing facilities. This may be just semantics but as they are mentioned separately at one point, it should perhaps not be presumed that the further reference to toilet facilities includes hand washing facilities too. I think when it talks of a room it means full walls and a door, and doesn't intend for these to be called a cubicle. The sinks outside are unarguably mixed sex but there is nothing specific in the guidelines that doesn't permit this.

Whilst it can be argued that it is a bad idea for many reasons, I'm not sure that from a legal pov it can.

To add a caveat I am imagining the facilities in my DC school and what they are like, I'm aware that in other schools they may look very different. As I previously said the school was built 11 years ago and have always been like this. I would presume/ hope that they were built within the law.

@AfternoonToffee:

SSA website:

In June 2017, the Department of Education issued guidance on ‘Gender separation in mixed schools’ which states:
‘It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010’.

So separate toilet and washing facilities.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/singlesextoiletsfactsheet.pdf

That is how the government interprets the law. If schools are getting it wrong, they need to put it right. It is unacceptable for girls to have to deal with their periods at mixed sex sinks.

@Rattysparklebum

My local secondary has done this in the main corridor, 2 blocks of toilets facing each other with back to back basins in the middle, totally open and part of the corridor.

tbh it works quite well for the kids who use them at break time, there are literally hundreds of kids and staff walking within a couple of feet, reducing the risk of bullying and problem behaviour as everyone can see every thing and everyone and it’s really busy.

I also think children are just as likely to get physically or verbally abused by their own sex so single sex spaces are not necessarily safer

I've seen toilets like this, particularly for very young children. Essentially the stalls and sink area are more or less open with little screening from the corridor or classroom. This is great with young kids where the teachers may need to supervise more closely, but I can't really see it working all that well for older children who tend to want more privacy, often even in the sink area.

Not RTFT y but will.

Do they all have sanitary bins in?

If not I'd say that discriminates against the girls. So even though girls need more than boys they've built some and set them up for boys.

Our primary school did this they didn't have much room and worried about loitering/ bullying.

They rebuilt and had cubicles in space with hand washing in middle and open to corridor.

Girls who had started periods were allowed to use visitor toilet.

I was ok with that.

My experience with schools, albeit primary level, is that they never back down during policy implementation especially if push back is from parents...
Somehow pushback has always made me enemy number one, regardless of topic. Only the court of public opinion ever changes things in schools.

Re the if there's single sex and mixed sex then that's that's the third space asked for so what's the problem.

Many schools don't have enough provision and there is limited time to use them.

Loads of schools are also a bit of a labyrinth/ v big/ in different blocks so to go to find a single sex one could be a trek in a limited amount of time.

So depending on where and school it could be a bugger for those wanting single sex.

Op were they girls or boys before?

My school toilets were like this 10+ years ago. I don't think it's a big deal and surely not against any laws

@NortieTortie

My school toilets were like this 10+ years ago. I don't think it's a big deal and surely not against any laws

RTFT

@NiceGerbil

Not RTFT y but will.

Do they all have sanitary bins in?

If not I'd say that discriminates against the girls. So even though girls need more than boys they've built some and set them up for boys.

Will count first thing today. Good point.

@NiceGerbil

Op were they girls or boys before?

@NiceGerbil

They were both, back to back and separated by a wall, different entrances.

Still separated by that wall only 2 great big red gingerbread 'unisex' signs stuck over the existing male and female signs

Know the guidance is clear on the differences between mixed and unisex toilets, but in terms of semantics, my Head will just shrug and say 'no difference'.

How can I make the mixed sex toilet aspect count?

Pupils coming in today. I know what the girls will say to me.

OP, this may strike some as cynical... but are there any girls from conservative religious households in your school? Muslims, Jews, etc.? If there's one thing that schools will run a mile from, it's appearing racist, and if the parents of those girls kick up a stink about their children not being able to access toilets for girls alone, and complain that this is discriminatory, then things may happen very quickly. I know it's not the grounds you (or we) would like, but the end-result would be.

Do the toilets that used to be boys just have cubicles?

@Aparallaxia

OP, this may strike some as cynical... but are there any girls from conservative religious households in your school? Muslims, Jews, etc.? If there's one thing that schools will run a mile from, it's appearing racist, and if the parents of those girls kick up a stink about their children not being able to access toilets for girls alone, and complain that this is discriminatory, then things may happen very quickly. I know it's not the grounds you (or we) would like, but the end-result would be.

Thank you. Yes, a high number of our pupils are Muslims, some Hindus, smaller number of Jewish pupils