Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Book Review: Shon Faye & Helen Joyce

111 replies

MiladyBerserko · 27/08/2021 05:31

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fb7ea1ac-0585-11ec-9bf4-46b41c0cb5c4?shareToken=092b4ac490d84a875beca16b17049e99

Don't think Shon is going to be happy.

OP posts:
FindTheTruth · 27/08/2021 06:16

Until now I've not had the stomach to look into the Shon stuff and reading this these extreme views makes me worry for Wales.

Shon's entitled to have any view but does not have a human right to force others to share them. This bit from Helen's book puts it well Other belief systems — religious, philosophical, metaphysical — are held privately. Gender self-identification is a demand that other people believe what you believe.

JustSpeculation · 27/08/2021 06:27

Yes, but aren't you mildly curious about what kinds of argument Faye has come out with? I'm going to read the book. I'm interested. I have a small collection of idiot writings from the 60s and 70s, including a gem from the pro-Mao US China People's Friendship Association, which demonstrates through argument that people shouldn't be frightened of the fallout from a Chinese nuclear bomb, as it was produced under Socialism. Production under Socialism means production for people, not profit, and therefore the US working class cannot be hurt by Chinese fallout.

So I'm interested in the current state of play.

Abhannmor · 27/08/2021 06:41

Christina Patterson. Another refugee from the Guardian?

PaleBlueMoonlight · 27/08/2021 07:32

Good review. Though I agree with one of the comments that it is odd to call Helen Joyce’s position a radical perspective.

BraveBananaBadge · 27/08/2021 07:41

Smart move to review these books side by side! Thanks for the share.

From this, Shon just sounds like an all-round nihilist (as well as misogynist, natch). Patterson is far, but scathing. But social media will be up in arms, I imagine.

NecessaryScene · 27/08/2021 07:48

She thinks, for example, that prisons should be abolished. So should the police, because of their “complicity with white supremacy”. She objects to a “binary prison system based on genitalia” and thinks that “the neat binary” of male/female is, in any case, “a western way of thinking about gender variance”. She wants the complete decriminalisation of sex work. She is less enthusiastic about trans people working in the army because she finds it “difficult to accept that service in the military of a western power is inherently honourable”. Oh, and she wants to abolish capitalism. “There can,” she says, “be no trans liberation under capitalism.

If that's an accurate portrayal of Faye's book, then sigh...

What's it got to do with "trans"?

It's just the same package of bonkers Citizen Smith-style super-privileged communist-role-playing idiocy wrapped in a pink-white-and-blue flag instead of a BLM one.

Why would anyone listen to these fools?

James Lindsay did quite a good (but somewhat rambling) takedown of this sort of nonsense a few months back.

At the heart of communist and communistic thought is faith in a kind of historical trajectory toward utopia that's driven by social alchemy. There are many reasons why this fails in practice, but the simplest thing to say is that communism fails because communism doesn't know how communism will succeed. The fundamental belief driving communists is that once enough people become true believers that the communist utopia lies on the other side of certain social changes, a perfect society will manifest. How? Because they will. The details aren't meant to be known or told; they're meant to be figured out.

MorrisZapp · 27/08/2021 07:55

Yes I too would like to hear the substance of these arguments. Defund the police? Examine our whiteness? OK, show me your working. If there's any way of reading it without paying for it, I'll take one for the team.

AnyOldPrion · 27/08/2021 08:03

Reviewing them together is an act of genius. Faye is obviously going for the same ultra-extreme version of acceptance, which involves swathing changes that will render the whole of society unrecognisable, whereas Joyce is making an argument for the rights of women and young people within the bounds of our current, unequal society.

It’s one of the clearest demonstrations regarding which side’s arguments are more reasonable that you could get. It’s also very revealing that with all the societal revisionism Faye is calling for, it’s still women who are the main enemy and must be brought to understand what a woman is in Faye’s world. It seems that hating women was just too integral to be completely left out, even while demanding the most fantastic brave new world order.

Helleofabore · 27/08/2021 08:07

It will be very interesting to see the reaction. And I don’t think that the ‘anti-carceral feminism’ slant and that woman is political and not biological will give a solid foundation to the cause.

I expect that many people will read the book and feel empathy for that bullied gay boy. But not for the ‘enjoy your erasure’ adult they became.

AnyOldPrion · 27/08/2021 08:09

Apologies, I left in the word “same” when I removed the intended comparison with the Edinburgh Action for Trans Health Manifesto, as I couldn’t remember their name. It’s also a very extreme vision of how much the world ought to change.

edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

JustSpeculation · 27/08/2021 08:11

@PaleBlueMoonlight

Good review. Though I agree with one of the comments that it is odd to call Helen Joyce’s position a radical perspective.
Joyce gets to the root of the matter, so is, in a literal sense, radical.
Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/08/2021 08:11

What a stunning surprise that Shon is so angry at feminists.

AnyOldPrion · 27/08/2021 08:13

that woman is political and not biological

If you are going to propose something like that, which is in itself a swathing change, you ought to be able to back up your arguments with sound reasoning regarding why. That’s what’s always been lacking. I’d be interested to know whether Faye tackles that, or whether it’s a demand made, with no reasons given except “be kind” which is all I’ve seen up till now and which isn’t nearly enough.

Doomscrolling · 27/08/2021 08:19

Shon most condems the demographic Shon wishes to be perceived as? Colour me shocked. 🙄

terryleather · 27/08/2021 08:31

If Shon's book doesn't have a randy budgie pecking a mirror on its front cover I will be sorely disappointed....

terryleather · 27/08/2021 08:33

@AnyOldPrion

that woman is political and not biological

If you are going to propose something like that, which is in itself a swathing change, you ought to be able to back up your arguments with sound reasoning regarding why. That’s what’s always been lacking. I’d be interested to know whether Faye tackles that, or whether it’s a demand made, with no reasons given except “be kind” which is all I’ve seen up till now and which isn’t nearly enough.

"Women are whatever men say they are..."
CharlieParley · 27/08/2021 08:51

@terryleather

If Shon's book doesn't have a randy budgie pecking a mirror on its front cover I will be sorely disappointed....
Grin
GlinnerForPM · 27/08/2021 08:58

@terryleather

If Shon's book doesn't have a randy budgie pecking a mirror on its front cover I will be sorely disappointed....
Almost spat my tea out... well, sort of, had a mildly amused expression suddenly appear on my face Grin
SpindleWhorl · 27/08/2021 09:02

I hope every Conservative MP who currently supports the ideological lunacy of TWAW reads that Times review and has an awakening.

Does our Paymaster General really want to abolish capitalism? To abolish the police? To criticise the armed forces?

Interesting times.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/08/2021 09:05

@MorrisZapp

Yes I too would like to hear the substance of these arguments. Defund the police? Examine our whiteness? OK, show me your working. If there's any way of reading it without paying for it, I'll take one for the team.
Library? They should be able to obtain an inter-library loan for you.
PaleBlueMoonlight · 27/08/2021 09:14

Joyce gets to the root of the matter, so is, in a literal sense, radical.

Indeed. She could also be using the word because of the links wIth radical feminism; however, I don’t think she is using the word with that meaning. If she is, then the headline is deliberately misleading. If not, then she misunderstands what radical feminism is all about or she actually thinks it is a radical (in the sense of being extreme) position.

Mind you, she probably didn’t write the headline!

Jaysmith71 · 27/08/2021 09:17

In defence of Wolfie Smith, based on a real drinking pal of John Sullivan, he was a genuine Working Class Hero with honours from the University of Life.

Faye is the product of a very "If..." style expensive boys private school, and is very vague about their higher education. "Studied Law," but no indication of where or for how long.

NecessaryScene · 27/08/2021 09:23

She could also be using the word because of the links with radical feminism; however, I don’t think she is using the word with that meaning.

She could be. Many uses of radical are in the sense of "root" - "radically different", "radical change" - different roots, changing at the roots.

That's just been misinterpreted through "oh, well, given those uses, radical just must mean 'extreme'".

I think sometimes you get a play where both meanings are possible, leaving it to the reader, eg "the radical notion that women are people".

And I think this could be like that. (Not sure writer's normally get to choose their headline though - might be overthinking this!)

Both these books are trying to get at the roots of the trans belief system. From a believer, and a non-believer's point of view.

NecessaryScene · 27/08/2021 09:26

In defence of Wolfie Smith, based on a real drinking pal of John Sullivan, he was a genuine Working Class Hero with honours from the University of Life.

Apologies, not that familiar with the lore :) I'm a little bit too young.

Yes, I certainly wouldn't want to suggest Faye was in any way not a privileged little

FloralBunting · 27/08/2021 09:26

I'm going to read it.

I'm intrigued to see if Shon makes the proclamation that the there can be no trans liberation under capitalism, or if they make the actual case for it.

Because it seems to me that Genderism functions on an engine which is pure consumerist capitalism. Have great swathes of people believe there is something they need and don't have, that their bodies or physical reality is wrong in such a way that can only be seen if they either pay to alter themselves or buy special identity items to signal to others who they are. And get all this legally enforced so that everyone is compelled to play along with the scheme?

Surprise me Shon.