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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Book Review: Shon Faye & Helen Joyce

111 replies

MiladyBerserko · 27/08/2021 05:31

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fb7ea1ac-0585-11ec-9bf4-46b41c0cb5c4?shareToken=092b4ac490d84a875beca16b17049e99

Don't think Shon is going to be happy.

OP posts:
Jaysmith71 · 27/08/2021 14:04

@ArabellaScott

members of the Oxford Socialist Society who graciously informed me that I did not know what communism/socialism is because no one who lived in Eastern block countries had any real experience of living in a communist/socialist society.

Wild. I had an Asian colleaque years back who was told (by white western students) that she was racist for writing about Asia. I can't remember the exact reasoning, but it was twisted, ridiculous and horrible. She was subject to a Twitter pile on for not doing 'ethnicity' correctly according to these American brats.

Sounds as good as the "Stop The War" demo in Parliament Square charied by Diane Abbott who refused to let any actual Syrians speak on the subject of American imperialism being the cause of the Syrian conflict.

But Western Lefites have long been like that, espacially after 68, when it all split into the critical Eurocommunists, the loyal 'tankies' and the Trots who dammed the Eastern Bloc as 'state Capitalism.'

Helleofabore · 27/08/2021 14:20

@NecessaryScene

There was much merriment a few weeks back on Twitter where a load of Shon types were responding to a thread with what they would do after the revolution.

A lot of the answers were like this. Remarkably few seemed to be planning to do any serious work.

I love it.

Sooo.... haven't quite grasped that it will not be quite YOUR farm to do with it what you wished, eh under that political regime? I guess all the other 'worker bees' on that farm will simply barter for that person's services because obviously in self sufficiency those services are so vital in enlightening others. Maybe they simply meant they wanted a 'commune' on their individual farm.

Deliriumoftheendless · 27/08/2021 14:33

"I want an OOmpa LOOpa! I want you to get me an OOmpa LOOmpah right away!!!!!"
😂
But yes. Absolutely.

TheHandmadeTails · 27/08/2021 16:37

Analysis, history, philosophy AND jokes. The naughty corner at its finest.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2021 17:34

Yes indeed - surely if Faye was a genuine anticapitalist radical thinker, Faye would release Faye’s book on the internet as an open source document free for all to read…?

Quite Grin I mean, get your manifesto to the people

Ibizan · 27/08/2021 17:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

irresistibleoverwhelm · 27/08/2021 18:54

I’ve found myself musing (and even googling) over the past few days about these groups. I couldn’t find much, but there didn’t seem to be any indication that any of them were considered to be women within their societies. I don’t know how much access to single sex spaces exists in those countries where these “third gender” groups exist but I wondered how the claim that such groups have always existed interacts with the current western demand that these men are women and must be treated as such.

I think most of these groups were historically homosexual. The gender aspect was a way of socially signalling homosexuality. The complexities of these different kinds of cultural forms completely escape the trans lobby though - they all get appropriated as evidence that all these people were in fact "trans" avant la lettre -- which is cultural imperialism at its finest, despite the fact they also all complain about "western colonialism"!

Just because lesbian women in history cross-dressed, for example, this did not mean they understood themselves to be "trans" in the modern sense. Often clothes were one of the few ways of signalling gay or lesbian sexuality to others. And even women who believed themselves to have a "masculine" temperament did not necessarily believe themselves (or want to be) actual men. Dressing and taking on "masculine" gestures was often done for effect as a performance of alternative sexuality, or sexual desire, not as an expression of an inner "identity".

Even people who believed in the Havelock Ellis/Krafft-Ebing "inversion" theory of homosexuality did not understand it in quite the same way trans activists think of "trans" now (and most actually disliked those theories - the protagonist of Radclyffe Hall's The Well of Loneliness is actually profoundly disturbed by encountering them, and Hall was deeply ambivalent about them despite cross-dressing herself).

Doing something because it's the only way your culture allows you to express homosexuality, for example, or get an education, or live as an intersex person, or make your living as part of a marginalised community, does not mean that's the same as having an inner "identity". Gender ideology deliberately collapses the two.

It just doesn't seem to occur to many contemporary trans activists that dressing a certain way in order to perform a social signal (ie. to let other women know you are lesbian), is not, and has never been, exactly the same as "expressing an identity".

The very idea of "identity" is itself a recent, modern Western construction, which doesn't really replicate the way people lived and thought of themselves in the past, or map on to the ways people experience their lives and selves in other cultures.

The irony of activists who are completely caught up in extremely historically specific formulations of Western identity politics, then claiming they are liberating us from Western colonial ideas! It's completely topsy-turvy! (And dreadfully Western and imperialist of them Grin)

NiceGerbil · 27/08/2021 19:13

I'm surprised anti carceral is in there. It makes more sense in the context it came about- the USA. It makes no sense when applied to the UK or indeed other countries.

I've not seen arguments as to why it would be a good thing here so if anyone reads it would be interested to hear the reasoning!

Jaysmith71 · 27/08/2021 19:48

They had their anti-carcereal* demo a while back at the Home Office, demanding the release of all Trans prisonsers and the right of the Trans community to build their own prisons.

It was gently pointed out to them that they were picketing, and occupying the foyer, or the wrong govt. dept. They wanted the Justice Ministry, round the corner.

(* new word for me: I thought, What have Lynxes got to do with this?)

SpindleWhorl · 27/08/2021 19:53

@irresistibleoverwhelm, I'm think you've hit on a lot of the discomfort I've been feeling about academics in my subject talking about 'identity' and 'identities'.

They actually do understand sex and gender, and the historiography of 20th and 21st century gender studies.

They do understand semiotics, linguistics, feminist history, class-based oppression, colonialism, orientalism, race theories, philosophical ideas and theoretical approaches.

But say 'transgender' and their brains drop out and it's like a bloody South Park sketch.

irresistibleoverwhelm · 27/08/2021 20:12

@SpindleWhorl -- ooh what subject are you in?

Yes, I work in that area and it's like all the complexity and nuance we were teaching students about ten years ago has just disappeared! I have a colleague - who's quite famous as an internet provocateur - who knows their stuff on race inside out but as soon as you mention sex/gender it's exactly like you describe - their brain drops out and you just hear daft internet slogans.

Many people in my department are quietly GC and just keeping their heads down because of the toxicity of the debate and the sheer unreasonableness of the student body (especially women who are worried about their jobs). We mutter to each other about it at social events but don't dare address it otherwise. And then sometimes you get the odd colleague who really has swallowed all the guff. I was in the middle of moaning about students putting their pronouns on Zoom to someone I assumed, from their work, was pretty sensible - oh no. She started saying that everyone should just refer to each other as 'they' and do away with all other pronouns - cue the rest of us in the conversation doing the smile, nod, edge away dance....

(Interestingly she was the only one of us there without children - I guess if you don't have them, it doesn't occur just how patently ridiculous it would be to speak to small children using only 'they' as a pronoun for everyone....)

Blibbyblobby · 27/08/2021 21:09

She started saying that everyone should just refer to each other as 'they' and do away with all other pronouns - cue the rest of us in the conversation doing the smile, nod, edge away dance....

Actually I’m quite in favour of universal adoption of one of the neo-pronouns like xe as a general pronoun that anyone can use without offence to refer to anyone else. De-gendering language other than when the sex of the individual is relevant seems like a good thing. Sadly that doesn’t seem to be an option.

Blibbyblobby · 27/08/2021 21:10

(Not “they” though, too confusing vs the plural for more than occasional use)

NonnyMouse1337 · 28/08/2021 06:56

I definitely get the feeling this is another of those arguments that has to be welded in place in the heat created by the intense friction from cognitive dissonance.

That is an exquisite description, AnyOldPrion. ❤️

NonnyMouse1337 · 28/08/2021 07:00

They don’t seek to get you sacked or criminalised if you don’t convert though.

They would, if they could. Fortunately, we don't give such believers any kind of power or importance and would happily tell them to piss off. I do wish gender missionaries would be treated with the same levels of secular contempt.

WarriorN · 28/08/2021 07:46

@PaleBlueMoonlight

Good review. Though I agree with one of the comments that it is odd to call Helen Joyce’s position a radical perspective.

Yes! It's the common sense, most people think this, position.

WarriorN · 28/08/2021 07:47

Although radical means root so essentially "the basis."

WarriorN · 28/08/2021 07:52

@Blibbyblobby

She started saying that everyone should just refer to each other as 'they' and do away with all other pronouns - cue the rest of us in the conversation doing the smile, nod, edge away dance....

Actually I’m quite in favour of universal adoption of one of the neo-pronouns like xe as a general pronoun that anyone can use without offence to refer to anyone else. De-gendering language other than when the sex of the individual is relevant seems like a good thing. Sadly that doesn’t seem to be an option.

There's an extreme article Miranda Yardley links to on his page where the whole world is de gendered and the only difference is that those with bodies that can birth and feed the babies do just that.

It's an interesting ideal, and along the lines of non binary, but much more actual equality than blue hair and tik tok rants about language, but I read it with a knot in my stomach as you can see how far from reality it is due to endemic male violence and sexism.

DryHeave · 28/08/2021 07:53

“ “the neat binary” of male/female is, in any case, “a western way of thinking about gender variance”.

What?!?!

WarriorN · 28/08/2021 07:56

I wish @mirandayardley would write a book!

medium.com/@mirandayardley/why-i-disavow-woman-and-am-no-longer-gender-critical-8352586e7aab

Essay linked at bottom of blog post.

Soontobe60 · 28/08/2021 07:58

@ArabellaScott

. Other belief systems — religious, philosophical, metaphysical — are held privately. Gender self-identification is a demand that other people believe what you believe.

That's not quite true, though, is it? Some belief systems do demand other people believe what you believe. Some actively proselytise, some will come to your door with leaflets, even.

And some, as we are witnessing in Afghanistan right this very moment, force you to live under such extreme beliefs with the threat of rape, assault, imprisonment and death if you try to fight back.
SpindleWhorl · 28/08/2021 07:59

@irresistibleoverwhelm, you can PM me if you like Smile

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/08/2021 08:08

I'm not keen to read Faye's book, but if anyone takes one for the team, does it cover what, if anything, would be done about murderers, rapists and other dangerous people most of the rest of us want to see locked up

  • for the protection of the community
  • as a deterrent for others
  • as a form of punishment/retribution, which may give some assurance to the victims and their loved ones that most people care what happened to them and take their part?

The very idea of living in a society where there are no police and courts to enforce the laws makes me feel unwell. I suppose the answer of the playing-at-communism crew is that in their ideal world there wouldn't be any crime.

BTW, is it a coincidence that Faye's surname is so like fae/Fae/faeself etc? Nominative determinism, if it's Faye's original surname.

TinselAngel · 28/08/2021 09:06

If the Police are abolished who will force us nasty wimmin to comply?

AfternoonToffee · 28/08/2021 09:11

@TinselAngel

If the Police are abolished who will force us nasty wimmin to comply?
I don't think Shon has really thought this through. Wink