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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Book Review: Shon Faye & Helen Joyce

111 replies

MiladyBerserko · 27/08/2021 05:31

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fb7ea1ac-0585-11ec-9bf4-46b41c0cb5c4?shareToken=092b4ac490d84a875beca16b17049e99

Don't think Shon is going to be happy.

OP posts:
LadyPeachums · 16/09/2021 10:48

I've read Shon Faye's book. It's extensively researched and referenced, rich in cultural history and testimony, and is insightfully educational on LGBTQ+ issues. It's a work of integrity, and I recommend reading it.

Re some of the comments so far: I am a lifelong radical feminist, and I do understand the term by its definition; and yes, I do think that Shon Faye understands this too.

Datun · 16/09/2021 11:01

@LadyPeachums

I've read Shon Faye's book. It's extensively researched and referenced, rich in cultural history and testimony, and is insightfully educational on LGBTQ+ issues. It's a work of integrity, and I recommend reading it.

Re some of the comments so far: I am a lifelong radical feminist, and I do understand the term by its definition; and yes, I do think that Shon Faye understands this too.

😄I'm sure Shon understands what a radical feminist is! Shon did, after all, specifically tell women to 'enjoy their erasure'.

And Shon's advice to youngsters was 'be sluttier than you are, suck dick and get tits early.'

Unless they have undergone some kind of personality transplant, I'm not sure one would describe those sentiments as the work of someone with 'integrity'.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 16/09/2021 11:06

@LadyPeachums

I've read Shon Faye's book. It's extensively researched and referenced, rich in cultural history and testimony, and is insightfully educational on LGBTQ+ issues. It's a work of integrity, and I recommend reading it.

Re some of the comments so far: I am a lifelong radical feminist, and I do understand the term by its definition; and yes, I do think that Shon Faye understands this too.

Oh well that’s my mind changed then, pass the pastel flag

Can you explain why women prisoners should be locked up with rapists?

Cos that’s what Shon advocates, directly or indirectly

PaleBlueMoonlight · 16/09/2021 12:16

@LadyPeachums

I've read Shon Faye's book. It's extensively researched and referenced, rich in cultural history and testimony, and is insightfully educational on LGBTQ+ issues. It's a work of integrity, and I recommend reading it.

Re some of the comments so far: I am a lifelong radical feminist, and I do understand the term by its definition; and yes, I do think that Shon Faye understands this too.

This is good to know and I may read it, but how is it on answering the questions that matter to women with respect to replacing sex based terminology, services, spaces and legal rights with those based on gender identity? Does it set out and address these points head on?
Helleofabore · 16/09/2021 12:28

Actually @LadyPeachums, would you mind explaining further about the non-carceral approach that SF advocates.

How did SF explain this would be of benefit to women, please?

Beowulfa · 16/09/2021 12:34

"It is unfortunate that Faye chooses not to flag the wide range of sources she uses for her research. The mix of dependable peer-reviewed evidence with much more dubious sources such as online surveys make it difficult to ascertain the reliability of each purported fact. "- extract from the Evening Standard's review of Faye's book.

What is your definition of "extensively referenced", Peachums?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 16/09/2021 12:47

I've read Shon Faye's book. It's extensively researched and referenced, rich in cultural history and testimony, and is insightfully educational on LGBTQ+ issues. It's a work of integrity, and I recommend reading it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, Ben Goldacre has commented that some nutritionists put literally hundreds of references in their work. When scrutinised, it's apparent that the reference is not relevant, or that it's been misrepresented, or it is literally to a newsletter. E.g.:

And the scholarliness of her work is a thing to behold: she produces lengthy documents that have an air of "referenciness", with nice little superscript numbers, which talk about trials, and studies, and research, and papers ... but when you follow the numbers, and check the references, it's shocking how often they aren't what she claimed them to be in the main body of the text. Or they refer to funny little magazines and books, such as Delicious, Creative Living, Healthy Eating, and my favourite, Spiritual Nutrition and the Rainbow Diet, rather than proper academic journals.

She even does this in the book Miracle Superfood, which, we are told, is the published form of her PhD. "In laboratory experiments with anaemic animals, red-blood cell counts have returned to normal within four or five days when chlorophyll was given," she says. Her reference for this experimental data is a magazine called Health Store News. "In the heart," she explains, "chlorophyll aids in the transmission of nerve impulses that control contraction." A statement that is referenced to the second issue of a magazine called Earthletter.

www.theguardian.com/media/2007/feb/12/advertising.food

So, what sort of references are included and have you validated a random sample of them? (Yes, I do do this for pretty much everything I read if it's meaningful to me.)

Whitefire · 16/09/2021 12:51

I'm guessing it is rich and insightful if one is reading it from the angle that trans people are desperately abused and harassed in all areas of life, and therefore the whole of society needs to change to accommodate them.

However the prologue doesn't fill me that it will be extensively researched and referenced.

For extract of prologue.

www.google.com/amp/s/mashable.com/article/shon-faye-book-the-transgender-issue-extract%3famp

StrawberrySquirrelThief · 16/09/2021 13:42

Another review of both books in The New Statesman - www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2021/09/how-to-talk-about-trans-rights

Whilst not a glowing review of SF’s book the reviewer appears to have an issue with HJ’s ‘tone’.

Mollyollydolly · 16/09/2021 14:41

Ahh 'tone' I'll give them tone. Just fuck off.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 16/09/2021 14:42

@Mollyollydolly

Ahh 'tone' I'll give them tone. Just fuck off.
But are you saying that in an authoritative basso profundo or an easy-to-dismiss squeaky feminine voice? (Bearing in mind what Helen Joyce says about that being the common reason men give for not listening to or hearing women. Grin )
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